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The Startup Mindset with Vickie Nauman

Updated: Mar 27

Venturing into the music tech startup scene requires more than just a bright idea; it demands a deep understanding of the music industry's unique challenges and opportunities. That's where Vickie Nauman, founder and CEO of CrossBorderWorks, steps in. On the latest Music Tectonics podcast, we tackle the nitty-gritty of transforming your innovative spark into a sustainable business. From identifying your real customers to deciding the right moment to assemble a powerhouse team, we cover the groundwork you need to solidify your startup's foundation.

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Episode Transcript

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0:00:05 - Dmitri

Welcome back to Music Tectonics a how to Startup edition. I'm your host, Dmitri Vietze. I'm also the founder and CEO of Rock Paper Scissors, the Music Innovation, pr and Marketing Agency. 

The How to Startup series on Music Tectonics launched last month with an interview I did with Cliff Flewe, the UK-based attorney and advisor, who answered the question is my idea any good? If you've not listened to that initial episode of how to Startup, look it up from February 7th and listen to it right after today's episode. Cliff talked about how to decide if your startup idea is any good, whether and when to pivot and some creative ways to validate your startup in parallel industries. Now, today's episode is here to help you get further along with the startup mindset. We're starting with the basics and the how to Startup series. We'll build on each episode and we'll take things deeper and deeper, and even those of you listening who are veterans might enjoy calibrating what you're doing now, revisiting your earlier intentions and methods to give you a fresh look at your work. Today, we'll talk about what to do first, when to build a team, how to think about funding, whether to stay in stealth and much more. To help us unfold this topic, we have industry expert Vickie Nauman with us. 

Vickie is the founder and CEO of the boutique consulting and advisory firm Cross-Borderworks and has an ambitious portfolio of forward thinking companies in gaming tech, web 3, experiences and music since 2014. 

She specializes in the intersection between technology and music, with a focus on music licensing, products, relationships and rights, helping grow companies from point A to point B and global strategic development. A digital music pioneer and web 3 enthusiasts, naman worked on licensing and product for one of the first legal digital services, music net slash real networks. She led strategic partnerships for connected device companies Sonos, started and ran the US business for global music platform, 7 Digital, and did digital music business in Europe and China. As a consultant, she built one of the first DMCA compliant services at Tastemaking, seattle Station, kexp, and has an MBA through the London School of Economics, nyu, stern and HEC Paris in the executive program TRIUM. She's an advisor to some of the world's most innovative companies, including those in gaming, m&a platforms, apps, rights related, strategic growth and early stage startups in music tech. Her climb pace includes Beat, saber, slash, oculus, ubisoft, niantic, sound Exchange, downtown Holdings, spotify, warner Music Group and more. Welcome back to the show Vickie. 

0:02:52 - Vickie

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. 

0:02:55 - Dmitri

I'm looking forward to digging in with you. So let's dive right in. When a music tech startup is onto an idea and they've validated an idea, maybe they've even started an MVP what should they do first? Should they build a team first, or get further with a product on their own? What's your advice there? 

0:03:12 - Vickie

Yeah, this is a really important stage, because usually a startup has found a problem that needs solved or an opportunity that they don't think anyone else is really optimizing, and one of the big challenges, especially in the music tech world, is that things change really frequently. So I always advise early stage companies to really keep validating a couple of core things around. Your proposition is what is the problem that you're trying to solve? And then, importantly, what is the customer base that is going to pay you to solve this problem? And this is a really important one, because a lot of times in music, especially when things have to do with music rights, there are all sorts of problems. There's a very, very long list of problems, but some of the problems there's actually no one that's ever going to pay you to solve them. It may be a problem around rights for emerging very, very young artists who are not registered in systems or they're not able to get the money flowing through to them, but there's not very much money there. So the tech stack you have to build to solve the problem is out of proportion to the amount of value that you could actually create in the ecosystem, and so that's a mismatch and that's something to really look at in those early stages of thinking through who's going to pay me to solve this problem? How much value can I really create? 

And then I think the other thing that's really important in this is, if you're doing something with music, you need to think a little bit more beyond just how do you solve a problem and create product market fit. You also need to think about what is that fit that you have with the music sector. Are you solving a problem for artists, for labels, for publishers, for performing rights organizations, for songwriters? And then you know, are there any forces at play in the industry that may not necessarily want or care that you solve this problem? And this is something that's very nuanced. So you may need to have talked to a lot of people and vet your idea and really try to make sure that you're solving something. That will be a success if you can fast forward a couple of years down the road. 

0:05:59 - Dmitri

That's great and it's interesting. We're talking about validation and you're validating some of the things that Cliff said on our last how to Start Up episode two. But I'm curious. Let's say somebody has some sense that they do have product market fit, or they're early kind of inquiries with potential partners or users or licensors or anything give them positive signs. Do you typically see people start by being a one person show trying to get an MVP together, or do people typically say, all right, I can only do so much myself. Let me bring in a team maybe it's a team of co-founders who nobody's getting paid, or I'm just curious, like how should a founder think about it once they've gotten even a little bit further than what you were just talking about? 

0:06:44 - Vickie

Yes, great. That's also a great question, and I think you know today's economy. If you are a technical founder and you are a developer and also the CEO founder, you're definitely at an advantage because you can write code and you can create a draft of a prototype of what you want your product to be without having to hire a dev team. If you are not a technical founder, it's a kind of a different journey, because then you need to find a technical co-founder or you need to find someone who is skilled in the specific area of technical development that you need, and sometimes that's really hard because they're expensive. Great people like if you need someone who can work with Unreal Engine or something like that. Those people are expensive and you're competing against some of the most lucrative companies in the world to hire those people. 

So I think that there's two sides to this. 

One is what do you actually need to build something that is a functional prototype or an early version of your product vision from a technical standpoint. 

And then there's also the optics of are you going to be able to have the right presentation, the right amount of time to perhaps go raise money to think about your product functionality, but to also think about your audience and the business of it. I think you really need a team, and it's similar to the myth in music that there's a DIY artist who does everything, but in fact usually even DIY artists who want to make a go of some sort of career. They usually have tools or at least a few other people around them so that they can concentrate on the thing that they do best, which is usually making music, and it's not that dissimilar in the early stage startup world. You need the technical development, you need business mindset, you need to have a viable business model, you need to think about your customer base and then you need to have a narrative that you can go out to investors or angels and that's probably not a single person. 

0:09:22 - Dmitri

That's super helpful, Vickie. 

Yeah, to think about like if you are a technical founder, there's a lot you can do in the early stages on your own is what I'm hearing you say, because that's the most expensive thing the technical build is. 

As a non-technical founder myself, I found that out with hundreds of thousands of dollars of other people's money, and then you have another relationship to manage at that point as well and you have that sense of runway and burn and whether you're going to be able to start to generate income for the investors as well. So I hear you saying it's a good idea to have a team. You can get a little further if you are a technical founder, but even so, there's only so much one person can do and there's other aspects that you could use the superpowers of somebody else who's good at selling or pitching or designing or marketing. There's the back end and the front end. There's a lot of different pieces there. So that's super helpful to think about. So I guess we're saying that ideally, you are going to need a team at some point. If you are not a technical founder building a technical company, you're going to need a team faster. But that creates other interesting challenges as well. 

0:10:34 - Vickie

It absolutely does, but I think there's also when you're in an early stage company, you want people on your team who can also do many different things. You're not big enough to hire a chief marketing officer and a chief product officer and a CTO and a comms person. You might need someone who is a you've got your core dev team, but maybe you've got someone who's good at customer, with business and marketing and messaging, and that you can find a handful of people who have enough experience and they're probably more likely to come out of smaller companies or other startups. If you. I've seen this many times where people who are very, very talented and skilled but they come from a decade or more at Microsoft or Google. 

It's very challenging for people in very large companies who tend to be very specialized in one area to go to a startup and then realize, okay, you're not going to be able to just concentrate on one small area and be good at it like you can if you're an executive at Microsoft or that you're in the dev team at Microsoft. In a startup, you need to be able to do multiple things. So I think those the people that you choose in the really early stages. You want to think about this, as it's a strategic advantage to have a small and nimble team and people who are able to add more to the entire business, partially because they're smart and passionate, but partially because they have the right mindset and are willing to pitch in and do what it takes. 

0:12:35 - Dmitri

We are off to a great start here with the startup mindset, and I think some of these conversations about team leads us to talk a little bit about how you pull off the funding of all this. We need to take a quick break, but when we come back I want to ask you about that Do you moonlight, do you bootstrap? Do you get funding? We'll be right back. 

0:12:53 - Speaker 1


0:12:54 - Dmitri

I get it. 

0:12:54 - Speaker 1

The news cycle of the music industry, and innovation in particular, is accelerating at such a fast pace it can be hard to keep up, even for news obsessed people like me. That's why we launched Rock Paper Scanner, a free newsletter you can get in your inbox every Friday morning. Check it out at bitly slash rp scanner. Dimitri and the Rock Paper Scissors team scan hundreds of outlets for you, from the music trades to the tech blogs, from the music gear mags to lifestyle outlets, so you don't have to. Then Dimitri handpicks everything music tech, including music industry revenue numbers, ai stuff, cool new user tools and the live music and recording landscapes, partnerships and acquisitions basically everything a Music Tech Tonics podcast listener would want to know. Open a browser right now and type in bitly slash rp scanner to get you to get right to our signup page or you know what? Just find this episode's blog post on musictechtonicscom and find that link. Happy scanning, but for now happy listening. 

0:14:04 - Dmitri

Okay, we are back and a common question is how do you organize your life to be able to launch a startup? Should a new startup founder, moonlight, keep their day job and do this on the side? Should they bootstrap, should they get some angel funding, or should they go big and fast? What have you seen that works, Vickie. 

0:14:22 - Vickie

I was just having a conversation a week ago with someone about this and that almost all startup founders for first time founders if they really knew what was ahead, most people wouldn't do it because it's so difficult, it's challenging, it can upheave your life. You are, you're out on a limb and you're oftentimes pushed very, very far beyond your comfort zone and, for instance, maybe you're a technical founder, you've never talked to investors. Then you find yourselves having find yourself having conversations with investors and you're uncomfortable. You don't really know what they want. So I think there's a you can't necessarily ever see what's around the corner, but you can bring people into your world who have done this before and who are advisors or other people who may say stay to the left, because if you go to the right there's a big pothole in the road. I know that that pothole is there because I've driven it before and you haven't. But I think that at the core of all of this is especially in the sense that, especially in music, bootstrapping is really really tough. You can only really get so far with it, because almost everything to do with music and the intellectual property of artists, labels and publishers it costs money. It costs money to engage with the music industry. It costs money to build apps. It costs money to market things. It's a very crowded and confusing and noisy place around music, so you have to cut through to end users, and so I think that the days are probably gone right now that where you just raise $20 million and it's growth at all costs. 

The investment community has shifted in the last few years and it really for many, many years it was raise a lot of money, grow, you grow. 

You don't care about the business model, you just want to acquire users, you want to get product market fit, you want to solve a problem. 

And then that shifted from growth at all costs to you need a viable business model. 

So then a lot of companies that were growing at all costs but didn't actually have an ongoing business model because they were just concentrating, you know, offering a service for free and trying to acquire users, they found themselves midstream, having to change and having to create a model, which is very difficult to do after you've already been growing. You really should do that at the beginning, and now there's been a further shift that still feels a lot like the fallout from Silicon Valley Bank and some of the you know some of the upheaval that we saw around that, which was, you know, investors wanting to see that you actually have revenue and that you can get to revenue. And this has all happened within a handful of a few years. And it's extremely challenging because if you raised money two or three years ago and the investors said, here's money grow at all costs, come back to us, we want to see that hockey stick growth. And then you go back for your follow on round two or three years later and they say oh yeah yeah. 

No, now we're not interested in growth anymore. 

Now we're interested in you having showing us revenue. Do you have revenue and they're like no, we don't have revenue because we're growing at all costs. So I think that it's it's like a little roller coaster for for startups, and I think right now I'm encouraging all of the companies that I work with that are early stage to really think about revenue and coming getting to revenue and a and a paying customer base much, much earlier than in the past. And this is this not only provides you with a, with your own bit of a safety net in the sense that you're that you're testing in a real world environment. Will people pay? Do people value my product enough to pay me for it? But when you're having conversations with investors, even if you have a small revenue stream but you can show that it has all the right dynamics and the right KPIs, that you will be able to accelerate that in a future state, that's that should help confidence with investors to see that you have built something that has a bit more sustainability to it. 

0:19:22 - Dmitri

Wow, that was a very direct, crystallized history of how startups have been sort of trained to think and and had a bit of rug pulling out from underneath them by the investment market and that was super valuable information. And you're right, I mean cash is the lifeblood of any business and it's the best test. If people aren't willing to spend their first penny, you've got a problem. And then if they're not willing to spend as much as it costs to run the organization or or return on investment for investors, you've got a problem. So really appreciate that is really helpful direct information, I think for for music tech startups and any startups for that matter. So I want to. 

I want to change to a different topic and maybe it's almost comes up even earlier than getting your first dollar. Maybe it's really that that previous phase we're talking about, where you're still like maybe you're doing your MVP or deciding to you know whether to bring on a technical co-founder or something like that. But I hear a lot of founders talk about being in stealth. I've heard I heard it more in the earlier days, probably, but but I still I've. I hear it occasionally and I've heard different theories on this Could a startup be in stealth or should they start building momentum more publicly, or maybe both. But how do you know when to go from stealth to public? When's it like your special secret idea that nobody else should hear about because they're going to copy it? Or when should you be out there building network, building community, testing things out? What are your thoughts on? 

0:20:52 - Vickie

that, Vickie? Well, I think that you know a big part of this is do you have any kind of a moat around you? You know what, and what is that moat Is it? Is it the idea, is it partnerships, that you have relationships? Is it a licensing framework that would be difficult for other people to replicate? Is it a patent? You know? And? And how easy is your product going to be for someone to get wind of it and then build it? And sometimes, sometimes, these risks are extremely high if you are trying to, for instance, create a partnership with a large existing company, a streaming service, a tech platform or a big technology company, because you know they oftentimes will not sign an NDA, and then you want to pitch them a partnership, or you want, you think that your product or your idea would be useful to them, and you're completely outgunned. You're a tiny company, they're huge and you're exposed, and so you think you know, will they? They have all the engineers in the world. Are they just going to take my idea and build it and sometimes they do. 

So I think that I think you, you, you it's, it's very multifaceted in this. I think that it's difficult, it's difficult to get validation on your idea and your maybe even an early product build in stealth, because you need to have enough people that you can talk to and that you can test and you can get feedback on. So so I think you know, I think there's a really important strategy here of of who are the people in your inner circle. Do you have people who are objective enough and who can you know, who you can speak to about, honestly, about the product, get feedback and iteration on it? You can try to get NDAs in place. You can put confidential on decks, but things get circulated around a lot, especially in the financial community. 

I've seen, I've seen a ton of decks that are marked, you know, confidential to a particular company, that are freely being, that are freely being sent around, and that isn't to throw anyone under the bus. But I think it's also just the reality that you can't keep the genie in the bottle very easily when you're also trying to simultaneously raise money or develop, develop some strategic relationships. So I think that you need to be, you need to be further, far enough, along with your product to know how unique is this? Where are my risks? Where? Where could somebody else replicate this? But I think it's. I think it's also important that innovation and problem solving tends to happen in waves and there's almost always multiple companies that are working to solve a similar problem, and people like me. I start, you know, I see a lot of things. 

0:24:16 - Dmitri

And so I start to see patterns and very yes, very frequently you talk to companies, You'll be like I just literally heard four pitches just like this. 

0:24:27 - Vickie

Exactly, exactly, and so, and people oftentimes have no idea that there are multiple companies that are doing, you know, maybe they're doing the exact same thing, maybe they are trying to solve the same problem in a different way, maybe they are trying to solve an adjacent problem, but it's it's, you know, connected to a bigger issue. 

You know, this happens a lot with me. Again, with music and music rights and artists to fan, there are things that people identify, you know, artists are being disintermediated by algorithms with their fans, so a big, you know, a big green field opened up for all sorts of startups that say you know, don't connect with your fans through an algorithm, connect through our app, connect through our platform. Same thing problem around music rights and you know, and issues of where money is getting blocked, and there will be a whole host of startups working on these same problems. But I think that, I think that you know, my view is, you know, once you start, once you get to the point where you have an MVP or you have a product that's in even a closed beta, I think, I think it's time, I think it's time to be more open with it, because I just think that that you're going to spend a lot of time and energy and cycles trying to keep things stealth and at a certain point, your advantages of feedback and validation are going to outweigh being private. 

0:26:02 - Dmitri

Yeah, yeah. One other thing I've seen some folks do and this is kind of an interesting kind of hybrid is to think about almost like a pyramid of revelation sort of like. You know you can talk about it to a certain extent before somebody sends an NDA. Then once they sign an NDA, you can talk about it to another extent. And then once they're like actually having conversations with you that sound like they're legitimately interested in partnering with you, funding you whatever you reveal more as well. But you kind of have to have a plan for that to understand. Like how do we talk about it in a way that's general enough that we're not giving away the secret sauce, but is specific enough that anybody cares to listen or give you enough feedback? 

0:26:42 - Vickie

Yeah, I think that's. I think that's exactly right and I do think it is in layers of you know who are you talking to, how much are you revealing, and then, once you start, I've even seen companies largely largely launch and start onboarding customers and that you know that there may be a fairly wide circle of people who know what the company is doing. Those customers know what they're doing but they haven't necessarily gone unlinked in or sent out a press release until they have some customers onboarded and then they feel that they validated it and then maybe they've raised around so they feel a sense of security. So I think it is really about thinking in layers and thinking in thinking in audiences. 

0:27:30 - Dmitri

Yeah, yeah, okay, let's take another quick break and when we come back let's talk about the music tech startup elephant in the room that's music licensing. We'll be right back. Well, hello listener. Did you know that this podcast is just one way? Music tech tonics goes beneath the surface of music and tech. We know that innovation thrives on community and connection, so we bring innovators together in a variety of ways. We've got a free online event series we call Seismic Activity. We've got the music tech tonics conference every October in Los Angeles and we've got meetups at major industry events like the NAMM show, south by Southwest and MusicBiz. Stay on top of our schedule. Get the music tech tonics newsletter in your inbox. Sign up music the tech tonicscom. Okay, we are back Now. Vickie, you have a strong expertise in helping music tech startups license music. Not every music tech startup needs license music to operate, for example, concert booking software, but a lot of them do. But if it is relevant, there's a lot to learn. What's the role of licensing music and how to startups tackle it. 

0:28:37 - Vickie

Yeah, licensing is. Licensing can be really, really vexing for early, early stage companies and if you think about the era that we're in right now, where, where we have you, know the. 

Spotify, Apple Music, on-demand, streaming big platforms where the entire value proposition resides around paying one low price and getting access to every song that was ever created. You're in a, you're painted into a corner for a project like that, because you need everything. Everyone knows that you need everything. You have no chance of being competitive in that world if, for instance, you don't have the major labels you have you know, your, your value proposition will fail. 

But I think that there is a. There's a really really big opportunity right now with gaming, immersive experiences, direct to fan. You know, artist-fan relationships, where it really isn't about having a full catalog. It's about perhaps a small catalog or a selection of songs that are right for your users, or maybe an artist and the a short constellation of songs that are the best of that artist for this particular use case. And one of the things that I have developed, that I do with a lot of my startups in early stages, is this concept, in the same way that you have minimum viable product, where you're thinking about what are the, what are the minimum features, what's the minimum functionality that I can create value that I could launch with, that I could at least put out in in beta. That will demonstrate and give me all of the feedback that I need that this product is working at solving a problem. Customers understand it. I have a concept that I call minimum viable. 

Music is similar, where you're really thinking and going through with a fine tooth comb, all of your assumptions around music and then determining what is the minimum viable amount of music that you need to prove out that what you are doing is going to solve the problem. So this could be that if you are a game and your bootstrapped, that maybe maybe you want imagine dragons, but you can't afford imagine dragons, or you're not sure if the way that you want to integrate music into the game is going to work. So, you know, doing a deal for a very high profile band and labels and publishers can sometimes be daunting for a company. So maybe maybe in that instance you say, well, you know, let's, let's table imagine dragons, let's prove this out, let's find some independent artists or a production catalog or maybe a, you know, an artist who signed to an indie label, who is about to go out on tour, and that you shrink everything with music down as small as you possibly can, and that's. It's not just around licensing, but it's also how are you? You know, what are the, what's the tech stack that you have to build to support this? You know, do you need to report? Do you need to split royalties out? Are you doing a revenue share? Is this one time upfront payment? How many contracts do you have to sign? What are you getting into in terms of implication of rights? 

And and this I think is extremely useful because it you know, sometimes the early stage companies they really aren't. They really aren't ready. They're ready. Someone told them or they read industry publication and they thought we need to go talk to Universal. And and they may not be ready to talk to Universal, you know, they would probably be in a better position to have that conversation if they had been running for months with some independent music and they could come into the conversation knowing exactly how valuable their users considered music, whether they're willing to pay for it, whether that improves engagement and in those kinds of things, data and understanding and behavior of users and behavior of your platform is sometimes. 

Sometimes it's hit and miss and you need to try things two or three times, you need to be willing to fail and then you refine your strategy and when you really know what works then you kind of go on to the next level up in terms of high profile music. So I think that you know I'm always an advocate from the very beginning that you do things right legally. I've had many companies come to me and say you know what can we just do? This Ask for forgiveness. And I was explained to them. 

You know, like asking for forgiveness in the music industry is not like asking for forgiveness when you forget an anniversary. 

It's it's, it's very expensive. 

This can bury you in in legal fees, and most companies that end up infringing they they never make their way out of it. There's a handful of them that have YouTube Musically, which is now TikTok, but most, most of the time, you, you just you just get buried and you're done. And so I think it's exponentially more important for your reputation and for the stability of the organization to understand what you're getting into at the beginning, know how big of a of of a risk and how big of a check you're going to have to write to the industry to enable rights pivot, shift your model. If you know, like you know, if you're building an on-demand service and you're bootstrapped and that service is going to cost $30 million, it's like, well, I'm not going to take your money and take you through licensing, because I know exactly what those term sheets look like and you don't have $30 million. So come up with a different model. Let's you know, let's shift this or find another way for you to come to market, but to do it legally from the very beginning. 

And and you know not, not just try, not skip those steps, because it's you know, you know, lit litigation is forever going to be a part of this industry, because there's a lot of value in intellectual property and and if you're if you're small and under the radar, you can infringe and no one will notice, because you have no money. And the minute that you raise money and you start to keep paying customers, that's when everything starts to happen in terms of cease and desist and people going after you. So it's not worth it, because if you're just starting to grow, that's the last thing you want to do is then be dragged into a you know, a legal battle and you are, you know, exponentially outgunned. 

So I think that you know the moral of the story here is find people who can help you sort this out from the beginning. Shrink things down to, you know, to forgivable music and lower cost, lower risk music, get product, make, market fit, get the music in there, figure out what works and then iterate. And it's the same process that you go through in product iteration, but I think you need to apply it to music iteration. 

0:36:45 - Dmitri

Hey, podcast listener, I hope you are paying attention because Vickie might have just saved you millions of dollars in lawsuits. Wow, Vickie, this has been a great review of the startup mindset. We've gone through a lot of different aspects not everything, but quite a bit. That, I think, will help people just get their head on straight. And I have one more question for you even if a founder is getting pretty far along with everything that you've discussed today there's, there are always questions that need to be answered. Where else can a startup founder go to set themselves up for success? 

0:37:16 - Vickie

Yeah, that's a great, that's a really great question. I don't think that there's anything better than going to industry events where you know music and technology is a central part of it. There's a short list of events that I think are fantastic at this. Of course, there's music tectonics, music biz, south by Southwest, music ally. 

These are all events where you have everyone is in the room, you have other startups, you have advisors, you have labels and publishers, you have panels of experts, and music is so highly nuanced that you know, you know, I think of it like a big disco ball and that if you're, if you stand in one position, you see it in a certain way because of how the light reflects. 

If you step to a different position, it's going to look really different and that's an angle that you just didn't know existed. And so, educating yourself, you know, with your team, by reading publications, by, you know, having good people around you. But this is this is a nuanced industry. It's also a relationship driven industry. So go to events and talk to people and observe other startups that are maybe a couple years ahead of you and see how they grew and see how they engaged with the industry and find, you know, find some examples that will. That will also help you shape in your mind how do you navigate this, this kind of crazy music industry full of constantly shifting roles, but the industry events can really fill in some gaps. 

0:39:08 - Dmitri

Awesome. I love that. You know I love that because I started the music tectonics conference for that very reason Exactly. Well, again, this has been absolutely incredible. Vickie, thank you. It's like a masterclass in the startup mindset. Thanks for being so generous with your time and sharing so much expertise and information. It was really great to have you on the podcast and we'll have you on again soon. 

0:39:29 - Vickie

Thanks so much, Dmitri. 

0:39:31 - Dmitri

Thanks for listening to Music Tectonics. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on your favorite podcast app. We have new episodes for you every week. Did you know? We do free monthly online events that you, our lovely podcast listeners, can join? Find out more at musictectonicscom and, while you're there, look for the latest about our annual conference and sign up for our newsletter to get updates. Everything we do explores the seismic shifts that shake up music and technology, the way the earth's tectonic plates cause quakes and make mountains. Connect with Music Tectonics on Twitter, instagram and LinkedIn. That's my favorite platform. Connect with me. Dimitri Vietze, if you can spell it, we'll be back again next week, if not sooner.

Music Tectonics at NAMM 2024

Let us know what you think! Tweet @MusicTectonics, find us on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.


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