Join us for an exploration of the future of audio creation with our guest – independent author, audiobook narrator, and creative economy expert, Joanna Penn. Joanna shares her insights on selling audiobooks directly through Shopify, using YouTube for distribution, and maintaining direct fan engagement with her extensive email lists. We also go down the Importance of Intellectual Property Rights, rabbit hole. Listen in.
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Episode Transcript
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0:00:10 - Tristra
Hey everyone, welcome to Music Tectonics, the podcast that goes beneath the surface of music and tech. I'm your host for this episode. Tristra Newyear-Yeager, chief Strategy Officer at Rock Paper Scissors, the PR agency that's all about music and audio innovation. Today, we have a very cool guest who's here to broaden our audio horizons. Her name is Joanna Penn. She's an author, audiobook narrator and creative economy deep thinker who has dozens of novels and nonfiction books under her belt, as well as an amazing, vibrant community of other creators that radiates from her popular podcast, the Creative Penn with two Ns. Joanna is here to help us better understand what's up with audiobooks and narrative audio as platforms like Spotify continue to broaden their offerings. With AI in the mix, the world of audio is shifting quickly to make creation easier, whether we're talking narration or beatmaking, and that's something that's impacting everyone, whether they are singers, songwriters or novelists. Joanna, thank you so much for joining us today.
0:01:10 - Joanna
Oh, I'm so pleased to be here with you, Trisha. I'm excited to talk about this topic.
0:01:14 - Tristra
Yeah, I'm really excited to give you the space to hold forth. So you have a lot going on and I know I likely missed some of your creative and business endeavors in that very brief intro. Is there anything else you'd like people to know about you or your work before we jump into the fun futurist?
0:01:32 - Joanna
thinking questions. Well, I guess one thing is I have been doing this sort of professionally since 2006. So that's a lot of years now, and that was even before the iPhone. That was before the Kindle, really before digital audio took off. I do have one of the longest running podcasts. I've been podcasting since 2009. So I've been in this kind of tech space for quite a while.
0:01:53 - Ad
But I guess also.
0:01:55 - Joanna
I'm very excited about this. I am an independent author, so I run my own business, I publish my own work, I own and control my intellectual property rights. So that's the kind of angle I'm coming from.
0:02:07 - Tristra
A lot of our listeners work both in the traditional industry as well as some of the more independent music worlds, and with music, much as with books and writing, things are really really, really interesting and dynamic right now, when it comes to both legacy models and more independent models. So I'm sure some of that will come up in our conversation. Let's sort of set the stage here. I'm curious with your long view of audio and narration, can you give us a whirlwind tour of what's been going on in the audiobook realm for the past few years? A lot of us music folks are not completely tuned into it. What's the market like, how's it changing and how are authors and creators engaging with these changes?
0:02:52 - Joanna
So I guess, similar to music, there are distributors and then there are retailers on the other end, and so we've really had these two companies for many years now ACX and Findaway Voices for going wide. So, in terms of AI, it all started to kick off, I guess 2021, 22, when Google released auto narration for audiobooks on Google Play. Then what happened is Eleven Labs started. Have you heard of?
0:03:19 - Tristra
Eleven Labs? Oh yes, yes, we actually use it a lot in our household for kid-centric creativity. So yeah, very familiar with Eleven Labs.
0:03:28 - Joanna
Yeah, so they are going gangbusters and they're now seen really as the best in breed, I think, for AI audio voices, but the big problem for authors. So, as you just mentioned there, creativity is boundless. At this point, you can pretty much do anything in any voice and many different languages as well, but of course, again, it is about selling them. We are business people, so many authors are now I know you've done shows on Selling Direct A lot of us are moving into Shopify Shopify and Spotify.
It's too many words, but, yes, shopify. So I have two stores jfpenbookscom, which is my fiction, and creativepenbookscom, which is my nonfiction, and I sell audio files there, although I narrate a lot of them and I hire humans as well, and I do have some AI narrated. So authors are doing that, and then they're also putting them on YouTube. This is a big thing too. Youtube for audio books is actually massive, and a lot of people are making money from ad revenue on YouTube. So then at the end of sort of late 2023, amazon KDP announced a beta program only in the US it's only for US authors for virtual voice narration, and there are now over it's sort of been reported there's over 40,000 audio books created with AI now on Amazon created with AI, getting good reviews, and this is, I think I think I mean you know it too in music. There's a lot of good AI music. There's a lot of good AI music. There's a lot of good AI voices, and the creators behind it can make really good stuff at this point. So I think we just need to acknowledge that.
And then what has happened in the last few months is we've seen traditional publishers start adopting this. So HarperCollins is now working with Eleven Labs. There's a blog post on 11labsio saying we're creating audio versions of select deep backlist series books that would not otherwise have been created. So they're being very specific about what they're doing, but nevertheless, this is a traditional publisher using an AI narrator voice for their backlist. And then, of course, we've seen recently Eleven Labs has a reader app for listening to any text with all kinds of voices, and famous estates are now licensing their voices. So Laurence Olivier, judy Garland, can read your book.
0:05:56 - Tristra
Yeah, it's a chaotic landscape, but there's some exciting locations in this world that's being created via AI.
0:06:04 - Joanna
Yeah, and to me, as you can tell, I mean I'm excited by this. I think it only brings us more possibilities, especially if you own and control your intellectual property rights. If you have sold your audiobook rights, then things are more difficult, but in terms of like, the other thing is exciting is creation of audio in multiple languages, multiple accents. So the days of me having to listen to audiobooks all narrated by americans heaven forfend exactly. I mean, so often I get an audiobook and it's like, oh, it's another american man that I have to listen to, I mean, yeah, that makes sense you know why can't we have more audio books with?
I don't know Scottish accents- oh, that'd be amazing.
0:06:47 - Tristra
I'd love it.
0:06:48 - Ad
Just a normal.
0:06:49 - Joanna
Why can't you choose the voice of your narrator in the same way that you choose the voice of your Siri, or, you know, your Alexa or whatever? Yeah, yeah.
0:06:56 - Tristra
I love it. So, joanna, I'm wondering you know, in the music industry there's been a lot of interesting it's kind of a more delicate dance with the major labels and publishers and AI than it's been in the past with, say, the digital music revolution, when things like Napster and P2P file sharing came on the scene and really changed the way people were consuming music and the market kind of fell out of the big CD boom. Right now, what we're seeing is, instead of this, more adversarial approach, though of course there are lawsuits and many lawsuits going on right now related to music and IP. But there's also this sort of interest from the major labels, especially when it comes to things like lyrics, in getting the licenses. Working with AI companies, there's a bit more of a detente than there was in the past or in the original digital revolution. I'm curious how this looks in the book and publishing world. Is it also more sort of like curiosity, courtship, exploration, as well as a little bit of adversarial stance, or do things feel very different for books?
0:08:08 - Joanna
No, I think it's pretty similar in terms of some publishing. You know obviously the. What is it? The New York Times is the famous one that has the case.
But then if you look on OpenAI's website, they've signed licensing agreements with like the Financial Times here in the UK News Corp, who own a ton of papers. News Corp also own HarperCollins Publishers. Now that publisher is not included in that licensing deal at the moment, but is it a coincidence that HarperCollins is now working with Eleven Labs in terms of? They do seem pretty open to that kind of thing. The Authors Guild in the US and ALCS, which is a licensing society here in the UK, are both protesting about things but also investigating licensing deals, and I wrote a book on AI in 2020, and I said we need licensing deals, and this is what's going to happen.
These court cases are all going to be resolved with some payouts, but in reality, the individual creator is not going to make much. It's a bit like the Spotify streaming revenue, right? Yeah, a number of people get a big chunk and for authors, it will mainly be big publishers like HarperCollins will get a very big payout, but the individual authors might not get that much. But I think the licensing deal will go ahead at some point and maybe we'll make a bit of money, but in reality, I think I like to kind of draw back the perception of this whole thing and say, look, this is not about creative work, it is called generative AI. But what is more exciting is, you know, solve the problems of healthcare, solve the problems of climate change, solve science you know, these are the big questions that these labs are really looking at.
They're actually wanting to change or help figure out some of the biggest problems of humanity. So I always say you know, look, what I'm finding with AI is amazing. Oh yeah, sure, I would love to get some extra cash, but that's not the exciting thing about this. So I think that these deals will go through. There will be some licensing stuff and this is out the box. That's the other thing. There's a whole load of open source models. So, regardless, even if the official companies you know sign licensing deals, all the open source is out there. So, regardless, even if the official companies you know sign licensing deals, all the open source is out there. So it's not going away. And I mean I want creatives to embrace it and find the opportunities. And you know, obviously we can talk about that some more.
0:10:36 - Tristra
Yeah, I, and I'm always inspired when I hear your thoughts on the future. We'll definitely get to that in a second. Before we do, we're going to take a really quick break.
0:10:49 - Ad
The Music Tectonics team has been hard at work, programming an amazing lineup of speakers for our 2024 edition. I've had the opportunity to talk with some of our thought leaders, and here's what they're excited about. Joe To of Sony Ventures is looking at the big picture, to quote him. Right now we are witnessing a remarkable convergence of entertainment media, encompassing music, gaming, streaming and more. This fusion within the entertainment landscape is revolutionizing the way fans consume content. It enables deeper connections and engagement with creators through innovative and immersive experiences immersive experiences by leveraging these diverse media forms, we are fostering a dynamic and interactive ecosystem where creativity and interaction thrive in unprecedented ways. Other hot topics speakers are excited to dive into include AI comes to market, super fans and fandom, late stage streaming, gamers as music fans. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Head over to musictectonicscom slash speakers to check out our amazing lineup of thought leaders, updated regularly. Now back to the show.
0:11:56 - Tristra
All right, we're back with Joanna Penn talking about the exciting intersection of audio, writ large the Venn diagram, where the music industry and the book publishing industry intersect and create interesting ripples. Maybe I don't know. I want to go back to the music biz, which is where, of course, I live most of my life, and, joanna, I'm sure you've read about this because you read so widely in these issues. But the music biz has been a little bit upset, to put it very mildly, about Spotify's attempt to present audiobooks as a big change in their product offering, so I like to call it the bundle kerfluffle. This bundling move has allowed Spotify to make some maneuvers to claim that they don't owe certain rights holders as much, and that's been very difficult for the music industry to accept, and so there's some ongoing debate about that. I'm curious how has the new sort of audiobooks offering shaken up the audiobooks or the book world, if at all? I mean, there weren't many competitors that were really really big, you know big 500 pound tech gorillas, many competitors to Audible in the past, right?
0:13:09 - Ad
So is Spotify coming yeah?
0:13:11 - Tristra
Yeah. Is Spotify coming on the scene like a big deal, or is it just like, yeah, yet another audio book platform, whatever.
0:13:18 - Joanna
Next question no, it is a really big deal actually. I mean even just personally, my income has actually gone up with.
0:13:26 - Tristra
Spotify.
0:13:27 - Joanna
Wow.
0:13:27 - Ad
Good for you, yeah.
0:13:29 - Tristra
Well, the reason is.
0:13:31 - Joanna
I mean, first of all, to me this is an attitude shift and for creatives, forget the big companies. You know, I think a lot of people listening are musicians are creators.
0:13:41 - Tristra
Yeah, exactly.
0:13:42 - Joanna
And in your life and in your creative business. Realistically, what can you control? You can only control your intellectual property. So if you make it, you own it until you license it and then and your email list, and so these are the things that I rely on and I mean, we've seen, you know, a lot of big names and small independent artists are doing this is taking control. So this is my attitude about it is taking control and then using these platforms and I include Spotify, I include Amazon, apple all these other channels are not my core.
So when this happened, I was haranguing Findaway Voices for years saying when are we going to get our books on Spotify? Because I'll tell you what Spotify has it has the most incredible discoverability algorithm and musicians know this right. But I'm a Spotify music listener and I've basically moved almost all of my audio book listening from Audible to Spotify for several reasons. First of all, they allow individual chapter listens and I listen to a lot of nonfiction, so I don't need to listen to your whole book. You know I want to listen to chapters. And also the discoverability is fantastic.
If you go on the audiobook tab. If people haven't, the recommendations are brilliant, and so what's happening for my own books and other people's books is they're being found. So if you take the attitude that Spotify is more about marketing than it is about revenue and about bringing people into that sort of wide circle of your platform those people who find you for the first time then maybe they do like your audio book or maybe they do like your song and they listen to some more, and then they go to your website or they go to your social media and then they see an offer from you for your Shopify store. So let's say jfpenbookscom, I actually just today, as we record this, I've uploaded a bundle. It's 14 books, 14 audio books, 65 hours of audio and my entire arcane thriller series for 50% off if you buy it from my store. So I make really good money and I undercut both Audible and Spotify.
0:15:54 - Tristra
Love it, there you go, yeah, so basically, and then?
0:15:57 - Joanna
I use Kickstarter, I use Patreon and I use Shopify. Those are the engines of my business and my podcast is still an independent podcast and a lot of them aren't now. So essentially, I use Spotify and Amazon and all these platforms to bring people into my email list, hopefully, and to care about me enough to maybe buy a print book or something else. So I think and again sort of referring, you had a director fan episode. Musicians are actually way ahead of authors in doing this. Musicians have done this better for years in terms of playing live or doing merch or, you know, even like Taylor Swift.
I know she's super famous, but re-recording those albums and a number of vinyl things she does now and all this, um, and the experiences that she gives her fans, I mean this is what we need to think about. So I guess, yes, there's kerfuffles with bundling, but spotify controls that. You don't control that, yeah, and all the moaning about it doesn't isn't going to change it. So what? All you can doaning about it isn't going to change it. So all you can do is say, okay, I'm going to treat it like marketing. That is a great discovery algorithm, so I'm going to have my stuff there, but I am also going to have better deals and cool stuff that they can get direct from me. So I think it's an attitude shift.
0:17:20 - Tristra
I think that's so interesting that you know, from a book perspective, an audiobook perspective, spotify is great because it has this, this algo that can serve people and help them find your books where you know it is. Discoverability, just like in music, is a huge problem for authors, especially people who are producing stuff that doesn't fit into like really narrow you know, genre, sub-sub-sub-genre channels. I'm thinking about certain aspects of, like romance novels and stuff like that where you've got.
You know that there's an audience for hockey romance and you can find them, but this is really cool and I think that this is, you know, from the creator perspective. The bundling move could be quite interesting and I want to talk to you in just a few minutes about how authors and musicians might think of our shared fate together as our media converge. But first I want to talk for a minute about AI voices, because AI voices, much as the sort of Spotify bringing audiobooks onto the platform, has made a lot of people in music go, wait, wait, wait, a second here. Ai voices have really shaken up the music industry.
So part of the problem here in the States and I'm sure you're well aware of this, joanna is that we don't have a federal image likeness, sort of rights of publicity law. It varies from state to state. Not all states have it. Some states have 75 years, some states have like five minutes. Ok, maybe not that, but it's a really, really crazy legal landscape.
And then you have somebody like Ghostwriter who came in with you know, with the fake Drake track, basically like showing what you could do with this technology, and it was pretty intimidating and worrisome for a lot of people in the industry, of people in the industry, but at the same time, there's all these cool new startups that are offering ways to license your voice legally for musical purposes, where I think that the models are similar but you need slightly more input to get enough data to make it sound pretty effective, versus narration and spoken word, I think, is a little bit further along in that. So how are you seeing people use AI voices in creative ways, rather than just, like you know, pressing a button on Google and being like, okay, now my novel is being read by a delightful bot and it sounds pretty good and I'm going to distribute it? Are there more creative things you're seeing happening out there in the world? I mean, how are independent authors or small presses using some of these tools to do cool shit?
0:19:48 - Joanna
Well, to be fair, right now the problem that I said at the beginning is we don't have the distribution. So the cool thing. So, for example, what I would love to do, what I've always wanted to do, is a multicast audio book, so you know, a full drama with sound effects, multiple actors. But I mean, the cost of doing that with humans is astronomical.
0:20:09 - Tristra
And also.
0:20:10 - Joanna
It's just incredibly hard to do so. Mainly you can get those like Audible specials or I don't know if Spotify has them, but the audio dramas that you can get, they've got famous actors in and all that kind of thing that is out of reach of most authors. To be fair, for independent authors, even just getting a basic audiobook is out of reach because it's going to cost you thousands of dollars to get, um, a professional audiobook done. Now narrators will say, well, obviously that's our job, so we have to get paid. Totally true.
But then you look at harper collins saying we're going to use AI for the audio books that would not be created otherwise. So even just before you go into like cool things, even just a basic audio book of a book that has never had an audio version is a huge thing. So just think about accessibility. The fact that probably 99% of the world's written text is not available in audio, and certainly not available in loads of languages, is just kind of awful. I read a lot in audio, so and I prefer the audio format, you know, and I podcast and that's. And in fact it's funny that you're saying that these musicians don't think they're getting enough money because things have changed. I certainly listen to less music now because I listen to audio.
0:21:26 - Tristra
Yeah, that's part of the concern. I think, yeah, that's part of the concern, totally. Yeah, that's human behavior.
0:21:34 - Joanna
You can't control the human either. What I think we need at the moment. In talking about licensing, one of the biggest problems is that most authors will license audiobook. So in a contract it will say audiobook rights. Now I think that's ridiculous because for the text, you might have ebook, you might have paperback, you might have hardback, large print, you might have, and then you might retain special editions. So you've already got five different text versions of that book. So why should you just license audiobook?
So what I think is that maybe there'll be AI narrated in English or AI multilingual, so you can change the language on the fly and that's now becoming possible or multi-accent or whatever. So I think in all of this stuff, the most creative things we can do is to stratify audio rights and have all these different things, and then suddenly you get a lot more jobs. For example, because I don't want to do all that myself, I would love to outsource all of that. You know people who want to produce full cast audio dramas more cheaply with AI. Hell, yeah, you know, bring it on.
0:22:44 - Ad
But I don't want to do it.
0:22:45 - Joanna
So I think this is the whole attitude towards AI that I find to be the healthiest, which is, what can it empower us to do more of as creatives? I mean, I've heard William talk about this. I mean William really is like the guy in terms of AI music entrepreneurship really is like the guy in terms of AI music entrepreneurship and he kind of says you know it's about, this is the age of the ideator and that creates an AI doesn't have a creative spark, it doesn't have an idea to create the book that I'm writing. I can just use those tools to get myself, to get that into the world in different ways. And I mean talking of weird music right, spotify is amazing, but I'm writing a. It is a folk horror, pagan novel set in a vineyard here.
0:23:34 - Tristra
Yeah, it's called Blood Vintage. Oh my goodness, I can't wait to hear more about that.
0:23:39 - Joanna
It's very exciting. But I was like, oh, I'm writing, you know, a sacrifice scene. And I was like, oh, I need some music. So I opened up Spotify and it offered me pagan music, mostly from Eastern Europe, and all this, and I was like, okay, whoa, that is amazing. I never would have listened to that normally.
0:24:00 - Tristra
Well, you're not. You know you're not doing sacrifices regularly, it's. You know? No, exactly I might use it.
0:24:05 - Joanna
But what's so interesting is this is the thing I and many authors make playlists on Spotify for their, for the music that goes with their book or that um is inspired by their book, and I think this is what people have to remember. People are like, oh well, everyone's gonna do it. No, everyone is not gonna do it. Most people are consumers. They are not creators. Most people don't have the imagination to do what we do. So trust people listening, you know, trust in your ability to make music, in particular, or words like I do, and then use that, for example. You know you could partner with authors and make music for books and, you know, pick up new followers that way. I think the collaboration is going to be incredible.
0:24:46 - Tristra
I want to dive into that more in just a second, but we're going to have a quick little break first.
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0:25:53 - Tristra
All right, we're back with Joanna Penn, and this is actually the question I've most been wanting to ask. So I really feel that one of the most powerful things is sort of you know, we've talked a bit, joanna, about AI as almost like this creative layer like you know, like in finance, there's a resolution layer, right, that credit cards provide. Ai is the creative layer that can bring together all these disparate parties and stakeholders and help us make something that is multimedia, but do it with, like you know, everyone coming from their position, as you said, of sort of creative expertise. So my dream is a future where authors and artists and other creators, like filmmakers, find more common ground. And how do you imagine this future? What are we going to need to make this happen? What are authors longing for? What are ways storytellers and music makers might come together in your imagination?
0:26:49 - Joanna
Well, you know, every creative person has these modalities. I think that they're drawn to. So obviously you're drawn to music and secondarily to books, I think, and I'm drawn to writing first, definitely not to music. But I don't know if this is really weird. I don't know if I've told you this before, but when I'm like in my 20s, I had a reading, like a numerology reading, and the guy said in your past life you were deaf and that is why you're sensitive to sound in this life. Crazy, I know, and I was like that is really weird. I don't believe you, but the truth is I spend most of my time with the sound of rain in my headphones because I can't stand noise. So I am very, very visual and I write what I see in my head.
But sound is very, very hard for me. Now I'm very excited about Sora S-O-R-A and these text-to-video models that are coming. I want to make trailers. But every time I make a book trailer and I do them for my Kickstarters is I have to go on one of the royalty-free services and buy some music. And boy is that hard for me, because I generally just search thriller music or whatever.
So I make the visuals and I'm making them a lot with mid journey and I use Canva and uh, but I I would love to have someone else deal with the sound. Now, if you take that bigger, I would love to um, instead of just a trailer, I'm pitching a lot of my books for movies and TV and the best way to pitch these professionals because they're visual people is with a trailer or is with something visual. So if I could make a short version of a film saying look, this is the type of vibe, this is the characters and whatever, and then that's the basis for them licensing To me, I need that. I'm an introvert author with a hell of an imagination, but I don't want to pitch my books. But again, that's something I'm excited to think about is how do we go multimodal.
But as much as I'm an independent author and I like doing a lot myself, I cannot do sound.
It is not what I want to do and it's not my gift, it's not my passion. So I think what's annoying right now is that people are afraid of saying what they're doing in private. So there is no real marketplace for finding help with AI stuff. So if I go on Upwork, I can find people to like proofread stuff, but I can't find someone who's proficient in AI music to create a soundtrack for my book trailer, and I think that's what we're missing. We're going to need these marketplaces to really open up and for people to say hell yeah, I'll make a book trailer for your folk horror novel, you know, and this kind of thing, and I think licensing will become more interesting. I'm also I know it's a bit off topic, but but in terms of blockchain, I think the idea of smart contracts on blockchain. So if you're collaborating between lots and lots of people, hopefully that's the kind of thing that could go on chain and could do automatic revenue distribution and stuff like that.
0:29:52 - Tristra
Yes, there's a couple of different attempts to do it and they continue to develop, even though we've kind of gotten into a bit of a blockchain winter, at least in the music world. But I agree there's a lot of potential for these automated. I mean, it almost takes a huge part of the project management headache off the table so that people can just talk about what they're making as opposed to no.
No, I should get a 17.5% split because of X, y, z, and we're going to renegotiate this every time we talk. I also think you're right. We're lacking like a common point of contact between these different worlds that have been so siloed and so broadcast mode for so long and the collaborative mode. Maybe AI is kind of sparking. It is, for me, one of the most exciting potential engines for the future.
0:30:40 - Joanna
And that's what's so exciting. I think we're just going to see this explosion. We just can't imagine how different it's going to be growing up in this new world than, like I certainly, grew up. I got my first email in the late 90s, right, I mean it's crazy we didn't get. I mean we had a tape deck.
You know all the retro stuff that's now coming back. It's just a very different world and I think the main thing is adapting and not holding on to the past. Or, if you want to hold on to the past, do a new vinyl edition of whatever your new single is, whatever. And actually this is a good point, because what I'm doing with my Kickstarters is going old school publishing and I'm doing beautiful print, you know, with foiling and sprayed edges and ribbons and color, and just I'm doing high quality, high price print books that basically AI is not going to do and that's exciting. That basically AI is not going to do and that's exciting.
0:31:38 - Tristra
That's a really wonderful. I love that there's always this not to get too Hegelian about it but there's always a sort of thesis and antithesis. And there's this wonderful renaissance in beautiful physical objects that are related to media or creativity, imagination, and then there's this really wild, weird world. That's kind of unpredictable. And that's my favorite thing about AI is that when it gets weird and strange and spits something back at you that you're like okay what do I do with?
that yeah, that's my favorite way to use it. So we have these two sort of ends of the spectrum that can really inform us, as both you know art lovers or music lovers, book lovers and creators and that, to me, that tension, if we can hold it and be humane about it, is really, really exciting yeah, I mean, I find it.
0:32:33 - Joanna
I'm just happier every day. Now it's so weird. It's like I can get in flow more easily. Yeah, I, because I can do more and I'm just happier every day. Now it's so weird. It's like I can get in flow more easily because I can do more and I'm kind of just in there creating much more freely. Now I'm a solo creator. I don't particularly like collaboration very much because I prefer to do it all on my own, but with these tools I feel like I'm actually collaborating and that feels very good, and musicians are a lot better at this.
0:32:58 - Tristra
So I think you know you're kind of forced into it.
0:33:01 - Joanna
Yeah, yeah, you're kind of forced to do it, and I feel like perhaps I'll be much more able to do it because I'm learning how to collaborate and communicate what I want in a different way, which again, is great practice. So, yeah, I'm so positive about this Tristra, you know I am and I think the yes, things are changing, yes, the business model is changing, but we have so much opportunity, especially if we grab it and we go for it and we do cool things.
0:33:31 - Tristra
I love it. Thank you so much, Joanna, for sharing that joy and excitement and for giving us an inside look into how things look in the audio world from the book perspective. This is super helpful and exciting.
0:33:45 - Joanna
Oh well, thanks for having me.
0:33:48 - Ad
Thanks for listening to Music Tectonics. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on your favorite podcast app. We have new episodes for you every week. Did you know? We do free monthly online events that you, our lovely podcast listeners, can join? Find out more at musictectonics.com and, while you're there, look for the latest about our annual conference and sign up for our newsletter to get updates. Everything we Do explores the seismic shifts that shake up music and technology, the way the Earth's tectonic plates cause quakes and make mountains. Connect with music tectonics on twitter, instagram and linkedin. That's my favorite platform. Connect with me, Dmitri Vietze, if you can spell it, we'll be back again next week, if not sooner
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The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.
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