Music is Getting Physical Again (in the Age of AI)- AlgoRhythms 2026

What if the most surprising thing happening in music right now isn’t what AI is creating, but what fans are reaching for instead? 

This week on Music Tectonics, we’re bringing you highlights from the AlgoRhythms conference last month, where our team spent time on the ground talking to researchers and innovators about where the music industry is heading.

First, Tristra NewYear Yeager sits down with Olivia Jones, senior analyst at MIDiA Research, whose latest report on fan behavior surfaces some unexpected data about how listeners are buying merch and discovering music. 

Then, Adam McHeffey speaks with Valtteri Salomaki, CEO of Edge Sound Research, about Embodied Sound that turns any material into something you can both hear and feel. Val’s work is rooted in a simple question: if a creator makes something, how do you know the listener actually experienced it the way it was intended? 

Both conversations kept circling the same idea: as music gets more digital and more algorithmic, fans seem to be craving something more physical and tangible.

Finally, we asked a handful of AlgoRhythms attendees whether AI makes them hopeful about the future of music creativity.

The news

• How AI Rights Are Changing Record Contracts — and Why Music Attorneys Are Pushing Back

• AI Is Already Training on Music. The Real Question Is: Who Gets Paid?

• AI And Music Publishing Licensing – How Do We Get There?

• Social media doesn’t feel social anymore – so where does online community go from here?

Listen wherever you pod your casts:

Looking for Rock Paper Scanner, the newsletter of music tech news curated by the Rock Paper Scissors PR team? Subscribe here to get it in your inbox every Friday!

Episode Transcript

Machine transcribed

Olivia Jones

[00:00:00] Tristra: Hey everybody, this is Tristan NewYear Yeager, chief writer at Rock Paper Scissors, and I am so lucky 'cause I am physically sitting next to Olivia Jones of, did I get your name right?

[00:00:12] Olivia: Yes.

[00:00:13] Tristra: Okay. I am physically sitting next to Olivia Jones of MIDiA research. and I am kind of excited. I learned something new about you today, Olivia.

Not that I have like a compendium, like an encyclopedia like list of things about you, but I learned that you, uh, were a percussion performance major.

[00:00:32] Olivia: Yes, I was actually.

[00:00:33] Tristra: That is so cool. What was your instrument or instruments?

[00:00:36] Olivia: Um, so I played pretty much everything. my main instrument was really, jazz drum set.

[00:00:43] Tristra: Wow.

[00:00:43] Olivia: Um, and then what I studied while at IU was, um, kind of any orchestral percussion, so marimba, uh, snare timpani. anything that could be in the percussion section, I had to take lessons in it.

[00:00:58] Tristra: That is so cool. I have to say timpani lessons sound really fun.

[00:01:02] Olivia: It was, it was fun. It was fun. Um, it was kind of stressful because you're tuning in real time.

Um, but it was always fun 'cause at the end of the day you got to show up and hit a whole bunch of things and make sounds so

[00:01:15] Tristra: well, I think, your newer role at MIDiA research, uh, also requires tuning things in real time.

[00:01:21] Olivia: Yes.

[00:01:22] Tristra: So I, um, I feel like we're really lucky today 'cause you and your colleague Tatiana Cirisano, who's a friend of the podcast, a friend of music tectonics, dropped a really interesting new report.

Can you tell me a little bit about it?

[00:01:35] Olivia: Yeah, so it is our Merchant Live report, um, and it's really kind of a deep dive into. Um, US buyers who are the, you know, merchant ticket buyers. Why they're buying merch, where they're buying it, why they're buying tickets, and a lot of their, feelings and sentiments about the wider, um, merch and live kind of fandom landscape.

So it was really great to kind of like do this exploration. 'cause it was something that of course a lot of people have been asking about for a really long time. You know, in a lot of different meetings we'd get the question about like, what insights do you guys have into how people are buying merch.

[00:02:12] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:02:13] Olivia: What insights do you have into ticket buyers? So, um, part of it came from that, but then part of it came from. You know, no one seems to really know, like why people buy a certain t-shirt over a different one or what types of merch that they really want to buy. And so that really helps inform how, um, people cater to fans.

And so that's what we really wanted to, explore more in the report.

[00:02:38] Tristra: That's really cool. I You surveyed around a thousand people?

[00:02:41] Olivia: Yes. So we surveyed, um, specifically within the us people who buy, music, merch, physical music and or, concert tickets. Um, so yeah, it was, uh, survey of about a thousand people, just within the United States

[00:02:57] Tristra: and.

What were some of the most amazing takeaways? What, was there something there that really surprised you?

[00:03:03] Olivia: Yeah, so something that really surprised us was that, um, of course everyone's kinda talked about how vinyl is coming back.

[00:03:09] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:10] Olivia: Um, and that, you know, it's still a pretty niche behavior. But there's been this kinda like vinyl resurgence.

And so we definitely saw that within our survey, that it's really driven by that Gen Z audience, like 16 to 24 year olds who were, most likely to have purchased vinyl in the last 12 months. Um, and so we asked them a lot about, you know, why are you buying physical music? Um, what is like the top reasons?

And surprisingly it is, uh, the top reasons were. tangibility and actual like music consumption. They're buying physical music to listen to it. Um, and so we found that really interesting because these are, um, listeners who are, they've grown up in a time where, you know, more music than ever is available at any point digitally.

 so they grew up within this kind of streaming era. But there has been a swing back towards tangible music that they can actually hold in their hands and they can own and they can listen to. Um, so we've been calling this kind of the analog revival.

[00:04:14] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:14] Olivia: But we found that to be so interesting that, you know, you would think who's still buying, you know, CDs and vinyl records, oh, it must be like older consumers.

But it wasn't, it was really a more often younger consumers.

[00:04:27] Tristra: I think that's. Really interesting too, because from what I've read about, say millennial, physical format buyers, so sometimes it's just as a collectible, right? So that was the previous sort of wisdom was, oh, folks are just buying it and like putting it on their shelf or maybe even framing it and putting it on the wall.

But it sounds like. gen Z way to go. You're using it like Gen Zs are using it as directed.

[00:04:50] Olivia: Yeah, exactly. That's the thing. It's like, obviously, you know, there are a lot of people who are collecting them.

[00:04:56] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:56] Olivia: And I mean, part of the resurgence of vinyl has been. Vinyl as a fandom product where they're buying it as a piece of merch.

We also saw, you know, um, young buyers who are buying multiple versions of a vinyl, the kind of what you think of the Taylor Swift, all the different versions have to collect them all. So of course there is still that behavior. but it was also often just, you know, putting on the vinyl, putting on the CD, and sitting and listening to it.

As intended.

[00:05:23] Tristra: I love that. I love that. That's really beautiful. What were some other trends that you're seeing in the world of merch that are impactful for the industry?

[00:05:32] Olivia: Yeah, so, um, a lot of what we saw was a shift towards, more subtle merch and very unique offerings.

[00:05:40] Tristra: Hmm.

[00:05:40] Olivia: So we asked, you know, like, what types of merch are you buying?

Are you buying, you know, t-shirts? Are you buying posters? And we saw a lot of like the same 16 to 24 year olds really gravitating more towards these specific things like jewelry and, you know, um, jewelry posters, like mugs, things like that, that are very unique offerings. And we're also kind of seeing this trend.

Wider, um, in, you know, merch offerings from different artists. So you have like, I think it was Sabrina Carpenter's like pajama set that you can buy.

[00:06:13] Tristra: Love it.

[00:06:13] Olivia: Um, I think, yeah, someone had like an like incense set and things like that. and so we're seeing, consumers really want more sophisticated offerings that no longer is it just, do you wanna get a t-shirt?

Do you wanna get a hoodie when you're buying merch? Um, it's these very specific things that actually, you know, play roles in their daily lives. so yeah, that, and then of course, yeah, the wider trend of subtle merch that isn't t-shirt with someone's name and face on it.

[00:06:42] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:42] Olivia: But things that, you know, like a piece of jewelry that they can wear.

 we saw, especially with, you know, older consumers, like they kind of middle aged sect, that is part of the workforce. Things that they can wear when they go to the office. That isn't, you know, blasting your fandom to everyone, but a kind of, if you know, you know, type behavior.

[00:06:59] Tristra: That's

really interesting.

I kind of love that. In some ways it is, you know, we've gotten to such an interesting place with, you know, music and subculture, you know, back in the day it used to be. You had a band T-shirt and not everyone would know that band. And so you'd be able to recognize your people by being like, oh, you also like insert, like, you know, cool band here.

Um, so that's really neat that people are signaling that in a new way and that's still a way to sort of find. Your fellow, uh, fan.

[00:07:29] Olivia: Exactly, yeah. It's like, uh, calling card for different fans.

[00:07:33] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:07:34] Olivia: Um, but you know, it's very much kind of coming into that in crowd of, certain fans like that. You know, not everyone really.

 knows what they're about or doesn't really understand them. And I think, yeah, having these different little pieces of merch that other fans can identify is a really important part of that.

[00:07:51] Tristra: So basically it's like the secret decoder ring of the music industry.

[00:07:54] Olivia: Yes.

[00:07:55] Tristra: I love it. Well, speaking of Gen Zs, you've done a lot of research into, gen Z listening habits, especially as it relates to social media platforms like TikTok.

And I remember, I think it was. towards the end of last year. Please correct me if I'm wrong, you did a whole thing about Gen Z virality and how so many people are, you know, absorbing culture with their eyes, not their ears, and how this sometimes leaves music artists in kind of a peculiar position. Um, I don't know if I characterize that correctly, but do you wanna fill us in about, you know, some of the research you did in that direction?

[00:08:28] Olivia: Yeah, so our all Eyes no Ears report, um, which really fun title to say.

[00:08:33] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:08:34] Olivia: Um, was yeah, looking at, how virality is and isn't building fandom. so some of the key findings that we had from that were that. You know, um, a lot of people look to TikTok for music discovery, but then it's more often if someone is, you know, quote unquote, like discovering an artist on TikTok, it's driving it back to them following that artist on TikTok.

[00:08:57] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:08:58] Olivia: Um, so it's driving. TikTok followers more than it's really driving listenership off platform, which of course is the key part of any platform. Mm-hmm. They want to drive that, behavior right on back to their platform. And I mean, there have been, key, you know, improvements in the last couple months with, I know I think Apple Music and TikTok and partner together.

Um, and now you can listen to full tracks within the platform. Um, so there've been things like that that really help. But, what we're mostly seeing is that. It, there are different levels of discovery. So, what a lot of people are referring to as discovery on social media is really a social discovery.

[00:09:35] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] Olivia: Where they're hearing a clip of a song, and yes, technically they're discovering that song, but also we saw in our survey that what sometimes they won't like, what's. We ask them what's keeping you from listening to more of the song? And they'll say, I forgot the title of it before I even left the platform, or I didn't wanna leave the platform.

[00:09:54] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:55] Olivia: Um, so often that's not going to a kind of deeper song or artist discovery, which of course for artists is kind of the most important thing.

[00:10:03] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:10:04] Olivia: Um, so our report was showing that, you know, there are a lot of different ways to discover music. it's not to say like one is wrong and one is right.

But it's important to know what level of discovery an artist is aiming for. and then to correctly strategize, to figure out how to get that deeper fandom from fans.

[00:10:26] Tristra: That's really, it's so interesting too, 'cause I can imagine, you know, just like we have music that we wanna hear in a specific context, right?

Like when I'm. At the gym working out. I wanna listen to music that I may not wanna listen to other places. Um, I'm wondering if it's the same thing for social media, right? You're in this context and that song really. Hits for that particular type of, I don't know, engagement brainwave, but then you listen to it like when you're driving your car, you're like, I don't know.

[00:10:54] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:10:55] Tristra: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:10:56] Olivia: That's the thing, something that we also found was that, sometimes, people wouldn't stream more of the song because they felt that they'd heard it enough on social media.

[00:11:04] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:11:04] Olivia: That, you know, you heard the clip. The clip's really great. You love the clip. You don't feel any need to listen to the whole song or listen to more of the artists.

It was great within that context.

[00:11:13] Tristra: Yeah. It almost reminds me of the movie that's like the funniest things in the trailer.

[00:11:18] Olivia: Yes.

[00:11:20] Tristra: And so I, you know, you know, you just like, I feel a little disappointed that you spent like 90 minutes, like, 'cause on a waiting for that moment you could have just watched again on YouTube.

Um, anyway. That's really fascinating. Are there, you know. A lot of time, where are in general, social media has been more visually oriented rather than audio oriented. A lot of people have talked about when's music and have its Instagram moment or whatever, so what, is there anything different about Gen Z and its relationship between sound and vision that you found intriguing or important for the industry to know?

[00:11:50] Olivia: Yeah. Um, we've really been looking more into kind of the. Multidimensionality of music, um, especially with Gen Z and then going forward to Gen Alpha.

[00:11:59] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:00] Olivia: Um, where we have these listeners who are used to being able to, you know, see parts of the music and listen to it and interact with it in different ways, you know, through music videos and things like that.

[00:12:12] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:13] Olivia: And we feel that. You know, there are some pushes for more multi-dimensionality, but I feel like it's a really missed opportunity, that is really given to the rise of passive listening.

[00:12:25] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:25] Olivia: Where we've gone from, you have a vinyl record or a cd, and while you're listening to it.

You're looking at the liner notes, you're looking at different pictures and things like that, to, you know, you're listening to music, you're watching the music video, to now you click something on streaming and then you go do something else.

[00:12:43] Tristra: Yeah.

[00:12:43] Olivia: Um, and so that's the thing is that. You know, music can have a more, holistic experience of engaging all these different areas.

And I feel like these young, this younger generation, they're going to come in expecting more of that because, you know, they have, different ways to play games and listen to music and watch videos, and they're now gonna be used to interacting with their favorite media in different ways. So why not that way with music?

[00:13:14] Tristra: Yeah. I think that's a really awesome question and I hope the industry can figure that out because

[00:13:18] Olivia: Yes,

[00:13:18] Tristra: also it would be super fun for people of all ages, not just our, our gen alpha buddies.

[00:13:24] Olivia: Exactly. That's the thing. I think like when we look at some of the rising trends of passive listening, um, sometimes the conclusion that people draw is okay, no one really wants to listen to music anymore.

 but what we found in our All Eyes no Ears report was that, A lot of younger listeners, people who they say like, oh, they're not listening to music. They want to discover new music. it's just that they often feel like there aren't that many opportunities to do so.

[00:13:52] Tristra: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:52] Olivia: So yeah, I think the main push for the industry is to really give them more of these opportunities to engage with music that they love and to find new music to love through these different ways.

Um, I think that's a great way for them to actually engage more deeply.

[00:14:09] Tristra: That's great. Thank you so much, Olivia, for taking time out of your busy trip to Bloomington to the Algorithms conference.

[00:14:15] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Tristra: To chat with us and, uh, you know, hopefully I'm kind of sad that I, I got to, that I had to miss your marimba performance or whatever the past, but

[00:14:25] Olivia: it was, it, it, there were some iffy parts of it, so you didn't miss much, but thank you so much for inviting me.

[00:14:31] Tristra: Absolutely. Hey, marimbas. Tough.

[00:14:33] Olivia: Yeah.

[00:14:34] Tristra: All right. Thanks everyone.

[00:14:35] Olivia: Yeah.

Val Salomaki

[00:00:00] Jade: Welcome to the Music Tectonics podcast, where we explore the intersection of music and technology. I'm joined here with Adam Neely. Um, he's here in Bloomington, Indiana for the algorithms event. he's joined us today to talk about kind of the intersection of music and, ai. Adam is an artist and composer, a touring bassist, and a content creator on YouTube who's amassed over 1.8 million followers.

He usually shares video, essays, lessons, and vlogs on the horizons. In music and music theory. Adam, thanks for joining us today.

[00:00:29] Adam: Uh, thank you so much for, having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:32] Jade: Absolutely. So what's your take on the future of music? in a best case scenario,

[00:00:37] Adam: uh, a best case scenario. Everybody gets paid and everybody.

Listens to music that's made by humans, doing cool and interesting things with technology. I have no idea what that looks like. Um, I think quite frankly, the future of music is very up in the air, because of generative ai, because of companies like Suno and Udio, these companies, which, you can do text to prompt, you can prompt, these, songs, which sound pretty good, honestly.

 And I think because of that, uh, it's upended a lot of the ways that people interact with music. It's upended a lot of the ways that I think people will consume musical experiences To quote, Mikey Schulman, the CEO of Suno. and in the best case scenario, I think, musicians will be able to get paid for their work and,

People will be able to listen to and experience music in ways that honor that and honor the cultural tradition of making music and sharing that with, uh, with people around the world.

[00:01:36] Jade: Awesome. Have you heard about the companies kind of working on the ai, attribution engines and, and stuff like that?

[00:01:43] Adam: Yes. So I think that is actually. Um, that is actually a great way that this can happen. you know, like one of the problems is of course, like Suno and Udio, train their models. I don't even think allegedly, I think they've straight up admitted this on, all of the audio that's on the internet. And because of that, you know, musicians are not getting paid for that.

Like, I. Have music, I'm pretty sure that was scraped for those models. and you know, I haven't received a dime for that training data. there are, at least from what I understand, I recently learned this at the conference. there are means of, Trying to parse what, training data was used in particular outputs.

And those are attribution models that a lot of people are working on right now. I don't know any of the details, behind it, but these attribution models will hopefully get artists paid and get, compensated for their, their work and for intellectual property. So I think that is a, good way forward from where we are right now.

 and, you know, going towards a world where artists are, paid for their work and people can still generate music that are derivative, works from artists recordings. That's one way forward. I think it's a good way, but I don't know where it goes actually.

 but I, I would encourage everybody working on attribution models to, uh, to continue their work. 'cause I, I think I'm excited, about that.

[00:02:59] Jade: Me too. So there are, there are AI music companies that are fighting the good fight.

[00:03:03] Adam: Yeah, for sure.

[00:03:04] Jade: Do you use any, um, AI tools in your workflow currently?

[00:03:09] Adam: Yes, believe it or not, I use AI tools or at least, that's how they're marketed.

I'm not sure if I would call them AI tools. I use STEM separation. STEM separation is a big, part of my workflow on YouTube, believe it or not, like stem separation is just the ability to take the sound, like isolate a sound within a recording. And that's super, super useful for me as a music YouTuber because I can take a classic recording from like The Beatles or Metallica or just any classic song and isolate like just the bassline to.

That song and then show it and like talk about it and analyze it and say like, ah, here you can listen to this note and the way that this person frets this, this riff. And that's very useful for education and it's also useful for the production side of things because if I record in a noisy environment, I can isolate the sound of my voice and clean it up.

And that's amazing and that's super, super useful to me. That's a fundamentally different technology and system than. the generative AI systems that would, you know, you type in something or you prompt something and then out comes a produced track. To me that is only AI in the sense of both use machine learning, but they are not part of the same kind of general aesthetic of ai, which is, uh, one of like text to prompt or one of generation, like, you know.

Chat, GPT, the chat, GPT of music, the mid journey of music, et cetera. I don't use any tools like that. stem separation is something that like. I, I've been a huge fan of for a long time. Um, there's this guy by the name of Simon Fransman, who is a, wonderful jazz memer, from Sweden, I believe. And, uh, he,

Six years ago, he, like before Moises or perform at Laal dead ai, he had this meme where he takes, Pavaratti singing Nema, like the great Italian opera from Turandot. and on the big climactic note of Vincero, um, he ha he takes the sound of Pavarotti's singing. isolates it from the orchestra stem, separates it from the orchestra, and then auto tunes and melodyne's it into the, the lick.

And so six years ago, that was mind blowing. That was so awesome. Like, oh my God, I can't believe you can do that. And, uh, I remember being so inspired by the technology and the stupid little meme. and so because of that, I, you know, have, been a huge proponent of tools that can let you do silly, stupid little things like that, that you wouldn't be able to do.

Prior to those AI tools being introduced, I love that so much because it's just such a fun, it's a fun approach to music that, I don't see any necessarily ethical qualms about provided that, um, the models that these STEM separators are trained on are trained ethically. I do have a problem with, generative models, though.

 mainly because of the data provenance of their models, but also because, the way that they interact with the musical world in general is I think, not great in general. And because of that, I don't use Suno or Udio or any of those platforms in my workflow.

[00:06:18] Jade: I use, um, I use some AI tools that kind of what the valuable part of AI for me is this iterative nature.

[00:06:25] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:26] Jade: And I, but granted, I, the most of the AI tools I use are kind of in the corporate setting.

[00:06:30] Adam: Yeah.

[00:06:30] Jade: Which, you know, rewards, productivity, rewards, speed, all these things that are kind of like these corporate values.

[00:06:37] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:37] Jade: Um, do you see that these corporate values are kind of weaseling their way into.

This creative space around music. And I guess I asked that to kind of prompt the question, like, was music ever meant to be commercial? Um, and does, that take away from the part of music that is inherently kind of good for the soul?

[00:06:54] Adam: Yeah, I mean, so I didn't go into music so that I could make music.

Fast. I went into music because I wanted to, shred, uh, I guess maybe that is making music fast, but like, but in a different way. You know, I, I went into music 'cause it was, it seemed like a really fun thing to do and it was an important, you know, an important part of my life. Being able to make music and share it.

 I don't think anybody goes into music because they want to be productive. it's not a thing. wanna be productive because of the realities of the industry and because of the realities of society. You, if you're productive, you can, uh, make more music. You can sell more music, you can, accomplish more tasks and hopefully make more money so that you can survive, which is important for everybody needs to survive and pay bills.

And so because of that, productivity is a very useful thing in the music industry. But maybe. It's not a good thing for music in general. if we think back to, recorded music itself when we, you know, we have, Edison, Wright. Edison, yeah. He invented the phonograph. Uh, when we, we started recording.

Music. We turned music from this thing that, uh, was a performance from something that like a bunch of people got together and performed to something that could be sold and distributed, which is great because more and more people could listen to music and that was awesome. But it also turned music into this thing, a product that was subject to the same kinds of market forces than any other product would be.

 subject to like the sale of furniture, the sale of, Whatever, you know, mugs or whatever. And because of that, it's now in the same kind of, intellectual space as literally any other, practice that's in the corporate world. So it is subject to the pressures of productivity, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

 I don't think that's the reason why anybody wants to do music. Um, and I think giving in more and more to that is ultimately not a good thing.

[00:08:44] Jade: Mm. Mm-hmm. What do you think are some, you know, industry-wide misconceptions around AI music, and. Machine learning and all this, this has this whole topic that's been really, that's really taken over the music industry in the last two years.

But you know, you've been, you know, it's been going on longer than that.

[00:09:02] Adam: Yeah. I mean, I think the big misconception that I know, I know this is not, like not everybody has this misconception, but I think for the general public for sure, is separating the ideas of commercial generative ai, which is the term I constantly use to refer to things like suno and Udio, and then.

Any other thing which has the AI buzzword, which might use machine learning or artificial intelligence or whatever, but accomplishes a very specific task. And I, I use stem separation all the time. I think they're fundamentally different beasts. I think they represent very fundamentally different things.

And if people, you know, there's quite a lot of backlash against commercial generative ai. I'm a skeptic of commercial generative ai. I think if, other companies want to distance themselves from the backlash, they start a different brand, they start some different way of describing their technology or their aesthetic.

Um, I know AI is the great buzzword, but maybe just say machine learning or come up with some other different way of describing, uh, the technology that you're using. because I love things like tone Timbre, transfer. Again, if the models are trained ethically, it's great. It's awesome. And even, you know, generative models can be done, very well and very, ethically.

And I think there are ways of doing it, but I think, just as a fundamental beast, as a, part of the tech industry. As a part of this massive amount of money that's flowing into these companies, I think it, it's important to isolate them away from other aspects of the technology and the industry that, I don't have as much of a problem with because they're quite frankly just not the same thing.

Mm.

[00:10:34] Jade: Mm-hmm. so in regards to commercial generative ai, do you think you can tell by ear if something is AI generated?

[00:10:42] Adam: Interesting. Yeah, I think I can. for me, uh, the lyrics usually are the big tell and, you know, you the company's marketing and the way that a lot of people, uh, say is like, you know, the lyrics are the human elements.

And then, you know, the model will generate music around the lyrics. And to me that's really the indicator, you know, professional lyricists. Have a craft that they have honed for many, many years. And I can really tell, because usually the scansion, the rhythm of the words, doesn't quite feel right. Doesn't feel right to listen to, to sing along to.

'cause quite frankly, these aren't being designed to sing along to you're, you're just listening to them. But, you know, I have enormous respect for lyricists and how they're able to craft the rhythm of the word in a given language like English towards. The melody and the arc of the melody. You know, when we speak, we speak with a kind of rhythm and we speak with a kind of cadence and melody into itself with our speaking words.

And that you really have to be sensitive to if you're writing lyrics and matching the rhythm and the arc of the melody. And so what I found is I think the lyrics are the big tell. also the. The vocal quality sometimes has a really weird auto tune effect, but it's not even Auto-Tune, it's its own artificial thing.

 uh, it really is most evident for me in genres which are not popular genres like jazz. My, my thing, it's so obvious when it's artificially generated jazz, to me anyway, or classical music, for example, just it's, it's nowhere near being able to do it. But on, Popular music and pop songs. It often is, honestly, it, it sounds kind of like, other popular music, other human made popular music.

It gets like 95% there most of the time. so I understand why people might be fooled by it, quite frankly. Do, do you have, uh, do you have any tells for you? Like, in terms of how you can, uh, tell?

[00:12:44] Jade: I think so.

[00:12:45] Adam: Okay.

[00:12:45] Jade: And I think for me it's about like the top lines and the melodies.

[00:12:50] Adam: Okay.

[00:12:50] Jade: I think that personally, like music comes from the soul and it's, it's something that feels really good to do. Like when I'm playing drums and I'm gonna improvise a drum fill

[00:12:59] Adam: mm-hmm.

[00:13:00] Jade: There's a certain element of like. This is coming from a body. This is, this is how this should sound, this what, this is what feels good.

If I'm gonna sing, on a beat or anything like that, the melodies I'm coming up with are, they're gonna feel, they're gonna come from an inspired place, like from the soul. And they're gonna, they're gonna feel good to sing.

[00:13:16] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:17] Jade: And I think that it's really hard to measure, like this feel thing that we're talking about, but when I, when I hear certain songs, you know, commercial pop songs that I might have a feeling are AI generated.

I think it comes down to the feel, and it comes down to, if I was gonna try to sing this, does it feel natural? Does it feel good to do the, that the, the range of notes or that run?

[00:13:38] Adam: yeah, and, and I, I agree for sure. Like when I've, when I've learned suno basslines or learned things like that, sometimes there's stuff in them that aren't quite.

 they don't lay on the hands in the right way, or, you know, sometimes they do. Um, because, you know, they're training on recorded basslines. That sounded and felt awesome. Um. But it always is this weird regression to the mean, where it's like approximating what it would be like to play or hear something.

And I think it's always important, for musicians to write music that's not only fun to listen to, but fun to play and sing. And that's, uh, it's a hard thing to understand unless you actually do it with an instrument in your hand. And, Yeah, I think that's a great point though, in terms of stuff that is a, tell in terms of, can you understand or can you tell if it's AI generated?

Yeah.

[00:14:28] Jade: Have you ever tried to jam along with an AI platform or seen videos of people doing that?

[00:14:33] Adam: Yeah, I mean, I certainly did. Or like, I, I always will try out the platforms. I will always try out. Um, it's not particularly inspiring. I'd rather play play along to great famous recordings. Like the thing I always do this, my bass warmup when I'm just like warming up my, my hands and stuff is to play.

 Stephen Winter has a great tune called Do I Do, and it's a 10 minute long jam. It just goes on forever. And so. Just play that. And I love that song and I love playing along to that song. And I've been doing that for like five or six years just to warm up, hands up. I just play along to Stevie Wonders Do I do.

And I cannot imagine going to Suno to try and generate something that's as good or feels as good to jam along to. It might come. It might come along. Uh, I have not had that experience.

[00:15:22] Jade: So let's talk about this, this concept that you've been kind of poking at on on some of your YouTube videos. It's this.

Idea that AI music and this interacting with these platforms kind of leads to this like narcissistic behavior. And I've, found this in myself too, from watching your videos. I'm like, oh, oh, I'm doing that. And it's, for me, it's, I will take some lyrics off my phone, plug it into suno, write a prompt around some kind of pop punk thing or whatever.

And I'm really happy with the, with the result. I like my result and I'll listen to it, but I don't like other people's results. Um, and it also, there's, you know, we're also not, like, I could have easily just invited my friend over and we could have jammed and it could have been just as good or better. Um, so yeah.

Curious as to, you know, what you think about that, that kind of narcissistic behavior that this is, that this is leading to potentially,

[00:16:11] Adam: yeah, I, I mean I've heard it also called solipsistic listening. That's another fun term where you just, you become so in love with the thing that you made, that you don't listen to anything else.

 you know, if you've ever gone on ar Suno, this is, uh, something that I've, I've seen is like people saying like, Hey, you know, I, I love listening to my own music, but I don't like listening to other AI music. 'cause it, you know, my own music is amazing, but other AI music is cringe and terrible. And, you know, like for my own self, for like non-AI stuff, I love listening.

Well, maybe not listening to my music. Because sometimes, the recording, like, I might not get the right recording, but I love my own compositions. I'll say. I, I love what I, it is that I write. And, what's interesting is that doesn't make it so that I, when I listen to other people's music, I, I don't like it.

Which is, it's a weird thing. Yeah. I, I love many other people's kinds of music and I love listening to all kinds of music and not, you know. It's a weird effect, right? Where it's for the AI world, it's you only listen and you only love the stuff that you make, and you don't really care about what other people make.

And, I don't know what's the mechanism behind that. I think maybe, you know, it rewards like you constantly tweaking something to be exactly the right thing for you to listen to, but at the same time, that's what. Uh, regular music making is too, you're constantly tweaking and trying to find the best version of that idea.

 the lead investor of Suno from Menlo Ventures, I believe CC Gong in a tweet said that, you know, this is, what she's doing. Maybe it was just to like, Promote Suno or whatever. I'm sure it was that, but it's like she was like, I have moved all my listening habits from, Spotify to Suno as a means of encouraging that people to do this, of like creating their own music that they themselves listen to over and over again and.

On the surface it might not seem that terrible, but I think the being cut off from other people's music, from non-AI music is potentially a really dangerous thing in the long term. And what I mean by that is like we have a shared culture that comes from music. Like we know all the same songs when people,

 when it's somebody's birthday, you know, to sing the birthday song, right? It's like that's just hard coded. Like you have this set of songs, this repertoire that, you know, I used to be a wedding musician. I played, you know, these long four hour weddings, and people would get on the dance floor and start screaming.

ABBA starts screaming Bon Jovi start scream. Uh, like all these classic songs and there's something really beautiful about a bunch of people getting together and having that shared body of knowledge, that shared, framework for which to. Connect with one another. And if you're only listening to the music that you create on a suno or like a platform like that, you don't have that sign of shared cultural knowledge.

The way I describe it is like, if you've ever been in a conversation about a movie you haven't seen, or a TV show you haven't seen with a bunch of people excitedly sharing details and fan theories, it's a bit alienating. You don't like being in that social circle because you wanna, you wanna contribute, but they're talking about something that you have.

No idea what they're talking about. And when you personalize culture effectively, everything becomes the equivalent of that conversation where two people are talking about Breaking Bad and you haven't seen the show. or I don't know, what's it, what's the show? Uh, severance. I haven't seen severance yet.

So, you know, like that is that like, and uh, and it, it is just like, oh, I probably should see severance 'cause like these people are having these great conversations. But like, So to me that's, that's kind of like the direction of this, unfortunately. And I would, if you use Suno, I would encourage you to not just.

Listen to your own stuff, maybe also listen to some other stuff. That's my, the main takeaway here.

[00:19:58] Jade: Yeah, totally. I mean, I, I agree with you that this, community as this, this removing yourself from the community aspect, is just, it's such a slippery slope. I mean, think about going to a, basketball game or a soccer game where you're all singing the fight song.

[00:20:11] Adam: Yeah,

yeah.

[00:20:12] Jade: And you might even become really good friends with like the random person you're sitting next to with. Cheering together. They might even be on a different team. Who cares?

[00:20:19] Adam: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Jade: Like, it's that community experience that I think is what, uh, is really valuable to us as, as humans and human creators.

 do you think that there's a ton of intersection around like, music and sports and this kind of like, collaborative, you know. A big event. Like a shared experience?

[00:20:35] Adam: Yeah. No, I, I mean, a, a huge amount, like the spectacle of it all. Uh, a bunch of people getting together to witness greatness in real time.

Like of course, you know, uh, there's what is a great play, but a great guitar solo, you know, like there's the sa it inspires the same kind of reaction in us, I think. I, you know, I, I say this all the time. the things that an athlete. Does, um, in terms of discipline, in terms of training their body, their mental focus are exactly the same thing that a, you know, a musician does when they're learning an instrument.

Um, there's a great jazz educator named Hal Galper who says that we are athletes of the fine muscles, so we are athletes of the fingers rather than the large muscles. And I always think about that, because it, really speaks to something, True about, I think both music and sports in that, you know, you're trying to, through discipline and focus and craft, you're trying to, create something and better yourself and then also create this wonderful community experience.

And, it's both like very focused on the self and also the community. And I think that's, uh, that is like what music is and that, so I take a lot of inspiration from sports and athletics 'cause, It seems like it's the same thing in different clothes.

[00:21:46] Jade: It's the same, there's the same elements of magic there, I think.

For sure.

[00:21:49] Adam: Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:21:50] Jade: in terms of like this community building aspect that we're talking about, what are some, what are some tips you would share with someone that's really doesn't have anyone to collaborate with and is really looking to build that, musical community?

[00:22:05] Adam: Yeah, well, like thinking about a, a sports game, one of them, like, I'm not actually a huge sports fan.

I think, that's one of the ironies about being excited about athletics is like, I don't actually know that much about sports. but yeah, going to a game, you know, you want to, your chances are they're gonna be fellow fans at a game, so go to a concert. Chances are they're gonna be fellow fans at a concert and fans of, the same kind of music that inspires you.

 even if it's like, you know. Find a producer, find a dj, find a, you know, beat maker, find somebody who is putting on some kind of live event, and go there and talk to the people there, who very likely are gonna be into the same kind of music you are because you chose, you made that decision to get out out of your house and go to this place, which might be kind of uncomfortable, might kinda dark, you might not, you know, these places like are usually a bar, so you might not drink alcohol.

So it's like not great. It's not a great welcoming environment for you usually, unfortunately. But the thing that is there is community and the thing that is there is, like-minded individuals and you start to really, really realize how important physical spaces are in the creation of community. and concerts are usually a great place for that because you are always going to be in the place where, there's going to be people that you vibe with.

 I think about. Um, in New York City, it doesn't exist anymore, unfortunately, but there's a venue called Rockwood that's, it was like three or four stages all in the same building, and there was always different musical events happening all the time. Like on the weekends, they would be, have music from like three.

PM to 1:00 AM in a different band every hour. It was just crazy. And the thing I loved the most about Rockwood, was just the fact that I, anytime I would go there, I would always see somebody that I, I knew and it was exciting. It's like, oh, where are you playing, man? Yeah, I'm playing Rockwood two like in an an hour.

It's like, oh, I'll see you at that set. And it was something very. Very special to be able to be in a physical space with people that I knew, that I would see and hang out with and, build and grow a community that way. Now, I know a lot of people don't have access to, uh, physical spaces for whatever reason, and so I.

You know, for me, uh, internet forums are the, were the ultimate, and I think to a certain extent are the ultimate way now of finding, uh, like-minded people and sharing tips. Uh, I was active on mx tabs.net, a k Sputnik music. I don't know when it changed, but like. talk base.com. I know seven string.org is where a lot of the, uh, metal musicians that I look up to got their start.

They're like bedroom producers in the two thousands. Like, uh, Misha Mansour and TOS Abbasi were just posting on forums, like sharing their, like, uh, their riffs and stuff. And, you know, there's Discord servers now there's Reddits. find some kind of community and share the stuff. it's hard. It takes a lot of concerted effort, but I promise you it's worth it.

And it is ultimately what it's all about. even if you don't, you don't, you don't wanna share the music making, at least share the music with other people and talk about your music. And the first time somebody listens to your music and then shares and importantly critiques your music, that's a special thing because critique is.

Constructive critique mind you. But critique means that somebody really listens to what you're doing and really cared about what you're doing, enough to tell you enough to get inside your head a little bit. and so that I think is such an important thing. Uh, I think about my, uh, mentors, my elders and my community that have critiqued what it is that I've done, and how much I grew because of that.

And I could only have that because of community. But yeah, it's, it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to make friends as an adult. Um, you know, so, uh, that would be my advice though. Yeah.

[00:25:48] Jade: Do you think anyone, uh, have, have you heard any stories about people. collabing, like from like YouTube comments, like on your videos or anything like that.

Has anyone like emailed you and said, Hey, we met in the comments on one of your videos and now we're working together?

[00:25:59] Adam: Not the comments. That's a great, great question. Not the comments I have. I have, uh, met people who have met at Sun Gazer shows, so my band shows who have gotten together and played, I mean.

Uh, there's definitely like people who are, uh, part of the general Adam Neely, in the general like music theory community on YouTube that have gotten together and started making music. it's very cool. There's like a very, very cool music theory, nerdy community that is surrounding, uh, my channel and a couple others, that, uh, they, they do good, they do awesome, awesome stuff.

 comment sections maybe. It's a, it's a bit of a, a wild west out there, but you know.

[00:26:36] Jade: Totally.

[00:26:37] Adam: Yeah.

[00:26:38] Jade: Awesome. Well, Adam, really appreciate your time today. Yeah. Really appreciate your insights.

[00:26:41] Adam: Thank

you

so much.

[00:26:42] Jade: Thank you so much.

[00:26:42] Adam: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Jade: yeah, look forward to, uh, hearing what comes next for you.

[00:26:45] Adam: Awesome.

Thanks for having me.

Does AI make you generally hopeful about the future of music creativity?

[00:00:00] Adam: Does AI make you generally hopeful about the future of music creativity?

[00:00:04] Steve: I'm Steve Stewart and the CEO and co-founder of SongHub. Super excited. I think the future is super bright. I know there's some downsides and rough edges.

But those will be sorted out. I think it's bringing music to more people, making it easier to write music, perform music, and distribute music everywhere. And I want to hear what's coming ahead. I think I'm, I'm really excited about it.

[00:00:23] Shayli: Hey, my name is Shayli Ankenbruck, and I'm head of events.

At Music Tectonics and rock paper, scissors and AI does make me feel a little bit hopeful, but it also definitely makes me scared for just the future of artists. I think it's a tool and it's inevitable, but I think we have to be really mindful about how we use it and how we accredit artists when we're training with all of their existing music and data.

But I think mostly hopeful.

[00:00:51] Lisa: Hi, I am Lisa Miller. I'm a career advisor in the Jacob School of Music. As far as ai, I don't use it a whole lot. I have concerns about the ethical, considerations of AI in music, and I also am concerned about the environmental costs of using ai.

[00:01:07] Chase: Uh, my name's Chase Remsberg.

I'm a third year PhD student in music education here at Jacobs. Um, wrapping up coursework here, and I'm our Zoom team leader for the Algo Rhythms Summit. I think I am hopeful. My entire dissertation is on AI music creativity, so either. I'm hopeful and I'm aware of it or I'm in denial. But I think, uh, I am hopeful.

And I think the biggest thing that we're learning from this summit and from my research and in conversations I've been having with people, I think the greatest thing that we can do is have that discourse at the very least, to at least be educated about the things that we're saying and the things that we're thinking.

Uh, because I think that's gonna move in the right direction for music, educators and musicians.

[00:01:48] Mikyala: My name is Mikayla Sue and I come to IU for harp lessons at Jacob's harp Academy with fun. Fun. and I'm just a high schooler,

In all truthfulness, I find that AI can be a helpful tool, but I think that today's generation is becoming too reliant on ai and I find that takes away creativity. So most of my life I've been making things from scratch. Uh, it takes a lot of hard work, it takes a lot of effort. and there's a beauty that comes with that I find, especially with things looking for inspiration.

But when you use ai, everything has already just sort of been fed into it and is being refed to you. So I find that there's a loss of creativity in that manner and people, when they become too reliant on AI to make things like music. Don't have that same sense of creativity or artisticness to it, I suppose.

[00:02:39] Tracy: hi, my name's Tracy Maddux. I'm the interim CEO of a company called beatBread. Uh, I learned a new word this week. It was apocal- optimist, uh, somebody that is optimistic in the face of like, hugely destructive change. I think we're at a point of creative destruction. Some of the, you know. People in the industry that have built systems or made music using old technologies are gonna be very disappointed by the change to come.

Some of the people in business and creators are gonna be very excited about the change to come.

[00:03:09] Adam: Thank you, Tracy.

Let us know what you think! Find us on LinkedIn, and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.