Imagine a world where your likeness is more than just an image—it's an asset.
Our conversation with Jim Griffin, media technologist and founder and moderator of the Pho list, talks us through name, image, and likeness (NIL) rights in the music industry.
Artists are navigating a new digital landscape where AI has the potential to turn one’s likeness into a substantial revenue stream. The music industry sits on the cusp of transformation, and understanding the trajectory of these changes is paramount. We explore strategies for artists to proactively manage and monetize these rights, drawing from the experience of the sports industry where NIL has already caused significant impact.
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Episode Transcript
Machine transcribed
0:00:10 - Dmitri
Welcome back to Music Tech Tonics, where we go beneath the surface of music and tech. I'm your host, Dmitri Vietze. I'm also the founder and CEO of Rock Paper Scissors, the PR and marketing firm that specializes in music innovation, and this one goes out to all the movers and shakers, the music tech operators, who know the business but want to push their thinking even further. Today we're focusing on name, image and likeness, or NIL, and we have a music tech cosmologist here to explain what that means and why it's relevant to all of us in music tech and the music industry as a whole.
Jim Griffin is an expert media technologist focused on digital music and its monetization, maybe the archbishop of digital music. He was for a decade, Jeff in Records, chief technology officer, leading efforts to digital delivery of music, especially the release of the first digital release of a commercial sound recording in June 1994. It was Aerosmith's head first. This led to testimony before the US Senate's Judiciary Committee Napster hearing in 2000 and numerous hearings thereafter, including international work for the United Nations World Intellectual Property Organization. His work included forming sound exchange to monetize non-interactive webcasting through the passage of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. He also co-founded the Infamous Fuh List. That's PHO yes, the Vietnamese soup. For more than two decades, an email listserv devoted to open discussion of digital media concepts among thousands of music industry professionals. Look up the New York Times story on him and on Fuh. Now he's obsessed with something called name, image and likeness. Jim, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
0:01:53 - Jim
Dimitri, you got the crazy pants.
0:01:56 - Dmitri
I got the crazy pants. We got cherry blossoms.
0:01:59 - Jim
I put some on too Crazy pants today, excellent.
0:02:01 - Dmitri
Nice. Well, that's why we've got you here, because you're a crazy pants thinker. As I said, I'm a music tech cosmologist and I'm looking forward to diving into this with you. Jim, what is name, image and likeness, and how did it first come onto your radar?
0:02:15 - Jim
Well, you know, it's really pretty simple, but I mean, I have to say, when I refer to nil rights, people do a double take. They have no idea what nil rights are and they refer to, as you put it, name, image and likeness, the right to control your name, obvious, image and likeness. They're very important because they represent who you are and in a world where we wonder if we can control our work, I've got doubts about that, but I'll say this you can control your image and your likeness, and so I think that leads us to monetization of that and to thinking deeply about how that's presented and what you can do to be a part of that business and conversation.
0:03:00 - Dmitri
Well, explain that a little bit more. You just mentioned a couple of things there. One that you can control this better than your actual work.
0:03:09 - Jim
Yeah, well, look, you can get scanned. You can get scanned and be able to generate your image and your likeness on demand using a generative AI technology, and if anyone's going to do it, you need to do it, because if you do it, you get out ahead of it. But if you wait and react to other people doing it, I think it's not going to be a success.
0:03:31 - Dmitri
You mean, everyone needs to do it, don't you?
0:03:34 - Jim
I think everyone, but I mean I'll accept that there are some people. This is not for to the extent that you're in the music business and you're monetizing your music. Your image and your likeness are important when you go on tour. It's what people want to see when you perform music. This is an important part of the conversation.
0:03:54 - Dmitri
So in the intro I talked about you being this kind of early digital music guy that was testing out all these things. Why do you think right now is such an important time that you're shifting your focus and your career towards these nil rights? Why have you turned your focus to it so strongly and why should those in music really care about it? You started to talk about that, but let's get a little deeper into that.
0:04:17 - Jim
Look, it's for the revenue stream. That's not for me. I personally am not so interested in the revenue stream, but I know that so many people in the music business are, and managers and others who think deeply about these issues. They think how can I make sure I'm not leaving any money on the table for my client? And I would say you are leaving money on the table if you're not focused on your nil rights. You need to think about monetizing those and exercising those rights and generating the image and the likeness of your client.
0:04:53 - Dmitri
So nil rights is huge in the sports world. Well, tell me why, let's understand why, and then let's see why music hasn't gotten there yet.
0:05:00 - Jim
By the way, that clued me in. When I saw these deals going down in the sports industry, I thought why not music? Why would music be left out of that conversation? And the more I looked, the more I came to understand that in the case of sports it's really legalized bribery. It's a backdoor to what had been going on behind the scenes. You know local car dealer wants some great quarterback to come to the local college and instead of giving them a briefcase full of cash, now they give them a nil deal which is totally upfront and appropriate and that's how it evolved. Is local boosters wanting to get involved with getting athletes and others to their alma mater or to the local college and wanting to pay to do that Now, for a long time the NCAA ruled all such deals, but that was viewed as anti-competitive and an antitrust violation and the NCAA lost in court and eventually it was freed up for states to pass laws to allow these nil rights to be the subject of negotiations by school athletes.
0:06:18 - Dmitri
So those individual athletes were able to kind of reclaim monetization of their name, image and likeness. Is that what you're saying?
0:06:24 - Jim
Yeah, look, I saw that LeBron James' son did a $7 million nil deal. And I thought really I mean, he's not even a big time player yet and he's doing a $7 million nil deal and I thought, why would a musician be ruled out of that conversation? And I couldn't find a reason for them to be ruled out of the conversation, and it struck me that there's a lot to do with image and likeness that people are interested in with regards to musicians. So it's time to start that conversation, if we're not having it already, and so I thought let's start moving down that road.
0:07:06 - Dmitri
Gotcha, just so I understand. So this $7 million deal you just mentioned from LeBron James' son what was included in that deal? Who was paying $7 million? What were they getting?
0:07:18 - Jim
By the way, I'm not sure what was included in that deal and what they were doing.
0:07:21 - Dmitri
What's typically included in a deal like this?
0:07:23 - Jim
That drew my interest is what it did, because I thought, if he can get $7 million merely for his image and likeness, I need to understand this better and I'm doing my very best to understand that.
0:07:35 - Dmitri
Got it Okay, cool, All right, we're going to take a quick break for a message and when we come back let's talk about deep fakes. I'm curious because I think that's part of the conversation. We'll be right back.
0:07:46 - Shayli
Meet your music tech people. Our next free online event is an open mic, open to everyone who's interested in the future of music and innovation. Introduce yourself and share where you're going this conference season so you can start building your posse and your meeting schedule too. Join us March 6th at 10 am Pacific, 1 pm Eastern, 6 pm UK time. You'll find out who's going to be at South by Southwest and get started making connections before you hit the busy streets of Austin. Find out where the hotspots for music tech are going to be this year. South by can be hard to navigate, so we'll help you build your game plan. Register for free and learn about our monthly seismic activity online event series at musictechtonics.com. See you there. Now back to the show.
0:08:34 - Dmitri
Okay, we're back and we kind of got introduced to this idea of nil rights and how it came to your attention through sports gym and how you think it's an opportunity for monetization. I feel like part of the reason we're having this conversation is because name, image and likeness of musicians now has the potential to go far beyond just appearing in an ad or giving you know, giving a testimonial for a product or something like that. What's happening with deep fakes, with virtual presence, with avatars and other I don't know digital beings? I don't even thought of that. Make nil rights relevant for the music business?
0:09:12 - Jim
Look, deep fakes is what happens when you don't do it and you leave a vacuum for somebody else to fill. That's a deep fake because they're faking it, whereas if you were generating that yourself, you could be booking the revenue and it would be an appropriate deal and it wouldn't be fake at all.
0:09:30 - Dmitri
Right. So we're seeing more kind of gaming companies create virtual artists. We're seeing Snoop Dogg on everything Sure, you know there's starting to be these kind of video filters for even zoom calls or you know other kind of digital video interactions where you get to be Elon Musk or Snoop Dogg or something like that Sure.
0:09:54 - Jim
Alexa has a feature that will allow you to have a conversation with Einstein. Oh he should be making money, or you name the musician.
0:10:03 - Dmitri
It could be there. I think there's a Snoop Dogg voice on Waze, the map app as well, yes, sadly my Alexa just went off when I said that. But she sounded just like blank filling the blank.
0:10:18 - Jim
Well she's saying yes, in fact, I can do that. But the point is, if you've got a distinctive voice or you're a musician, this is a right that you can use, the word exploit or monetize to good effect and build fans at the same time.
0:10:38 - Dmitri
Right, right. So I mean, I'm almost imagining we've watched this moving of music to digital, to downloads, to streaming. We watched the live streaming moment during the pandemic and now you're saying that you can have this other, your IP of your very being can now be monetized through some sort of virtual existence, and that you can monetize that if you are kind of tracking and managing your name, image and likeness in the right way.
0:11:10 - Jim
Yeah, I'm saying it doesn't have to be a ripoff. You can get scanned and have your voice scanned as well and have the text you write scanned such that they can be used for generative purposes for revenue.
0:11:24 - Dmitri
I mean, does this apply to the AI generative music stuff, or is it only the visual things or where your actual person name is used?
0:11:33 - Jim
Oh, it could apply to the music. You could generate music using AI, but you needn't. You may wish to make that music yourself, but as regards your image and likeness being used to promote an event or a cause or something you believe in, you can do that without even attending. You can have a digital package that represents your image and your likeness and have it do the work for you.
0:12:01 - Dmitri
Got it? Who in the music industry should be thinking about name, image and likeness, and how should they integrate NIL strategy into their businesses and their careers?
0:12:12 - Jim
Well, I know they're thinking about it at the Universal Music Group and that's really all you need to know at the top is that the biggest players are preparing to do just these things or to monetize just these things. So, record labels yes, record labels. Agents, others who deal with talent are looking at just this.
0:12:35 - Dmitri
I mean it's interesting. When you told us about how it started in sports, you were implying that the quote record label of sports, or possibly the distributor of sports, was the one that was monetizing this, and it was through a legal process that the artist slash the athlete could start to monetize it too. So is there going to be a battle for who gets control of monetizing. Neil writes say record label versus manager versus artist.
0:13:05 - Jim
I think, as in all cases, it comes down to the contract. My good friend Kevin Cassini would remind everyone of that. It's why the contract needs to be good and strong and enumerate these rights and to whom they are allocated. The key thing here is get out in front of it. Don't wait for it to happen to you. Be in front of it with your representatives. Make sure that your contracts reflect where these rights reside and that you're the one that's going to exercise them, and without your approval they cannot be exercised. At least that's how the contract should read.
0:13:42 - Dmitri
And when you say get out in front of it, there's two different getting out in front of it. It's one of his getting out in front of what's happening out there in society and culture, in consumer behavior, because people just have fun with all sorts of digital stuff. We've already seen some crazy deep fake stories, whether it's audio only or full video, and so you have to get in front of that before you lose control of your image. And it's just out there, maybe not making money for anybody, but certainly taking value away from what you could make money from. But then there's also get out in front of what your agreements are with your management company, with your record label, with your agents.
0:14:16 - Jim
Yes, in other words, I'm saying be aware that this is happening and be behind the wheel of that car that's moving. Instead of riding in the back, it's so much better for you to be out in front of it, to know your rights and to know how to digitize your presence and to make it as strong a representation as it can be. You don't want bad, deep fakes out there. You want good ones, not fake ones, ones that come from you and your representatives, that are approved by you, saying things that you agree with and not things you don't.
0:14:53 - Dmitri
So in a way you're saying it's up to you whether it's in a contract for your record label to have these rights or not, but it's a negotiating factor. So if it is in there you should make sure to value it correctly.
0:15:05 - Jim
Yes, I look. Everything that's happening now with AI brings me back to what it was like in the 1990s and how it felt to be dealing with digital music. And the same thing happened then, in the sense that you were either out in front of the digitization of your music or you were watching it happen to you. Your music was being digitized and people were trading it or passing it around and you were not the one providing those files. And for those who got involved directly at the beginning, who got out in front of it, they prospered from the process in very real ways. I mean, alanis Morissette, if I recall correctly, did a deal with MP3.com. Instead of being a part of endless litigation and so forth, she made a deal and said I'll put my music right out there, and she made a lot of money off that deal.
0:16:07 - Dmitri
More money off that than off litigation, you think?
0:16:11 - Jim
Oh, there's no doubt. I mean, she was represented, if I recall correctly, by Ken Hertz in the negotiations and I believe it was a very large, something like $300, $400 million score for her, because she got a piece of MP3.com for lending her music to it. Wow, and what I'm saying is imagine the different scenarios where you are somehow the subject of litigation around this and seen as someone who is fighting against it, or you are seen as a proponent of it, who got digitized and approved their image and their voice properly and made sure that it was attached to things they believed in. I think you'll find that that latter approach attaching it to things you believe in not only enables you to prosper, but to be out on the cutting edge and get lots of publicity for something that's very important.
0:17:08 - Dmitri
What I'm hearing you say, jim and this is really interesting, since you were the first to put a track on the internet, basically that, that Earl Smith track is that you've watched these waves, these waves of innovation emerge and you can fight them or you can ride them. And what you're saying is what's happening with AI now, and this digital virtual presence stuff is another wave, is a next big wave, yeah, and I'm not the only one to say this.
0:17:40 - Jim
I've heard many people say this feels like the 90s again, and it does, because again we see this happening around us, happening to us, and we question, well, how can I get involved in that and should I get involved in that? And I think the answer is yes, you should get involved so that you can understand it completely and be on top of it.
0:18:05 - Dmitri
Yeah, got it. I feel like we've mentioned this on the podcast in the past that we see certain artists or certain artists' teams that see the wave coming and they do just what you're saying to do with this kind of digital self and nill rights. They see the wave coming, they start paddling with and towards the wave to jump up on their board and they end up being the first in the front and they build a whole career around it. It becomes actually a defining moment for their career and I guess what I'm hearing you say is this is your early warning call. Like the wave is coming, you can get back on shore and go sunbathe and miss the opportunity, or you can get out there, start paddling right now that's the learning and get up there so that you're ready when the wave really crests.
So many artists I've seen do that First, with sure, with downloads. You just mentioned Alanis Morissette did it with downloads and digital tracks. We saw certain artists do it with YouTube. We saw certain artists do it with subscriptions. We saw artists do it with Instagram or TikTok.
0:19:12 - Jim
And really you only get one. Look at these things. You don't want to be the 50th person to do it. You want to be the first or the second or the third, because there it matters and there you can monetize it in outsized ways.
0:19:27 - Dmitri
Awesome, we're gonna take another quick break and we get back. I wanna ask you what will name, image and likeness look like in the next five years? We'll be right back.
0:19:36 - Shayli
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0:20:21 - Dmitri
So, Jim, this is fascinating. I love that you're really putting it out there that people need to jump onto this, like ASAP, be one of the first to really understand it, so they can monetize it, make it a defining moment for their career. But let's get a little bit ahead of ourselves. Let's talk about what's gonna emerge for NIL in the next five years. What do you think's gonna be coming? How will we experience music that makes this a relevant revenue stream?
0:20:47 - Jim
Well, I think it's gonna be more and more present in our lives for other reasons than music. I think it will change a lot of the way we do business in the world around us, how we negotiate, how we engage in peacemaking, for example. I'm thinking lots about peacemaking these days. We're in a world that's at war. I think how can we use these technologies to reduce the differences between people instead of build more differences?
0:21:16 - Dmitri
That sounds hopeful. I like it.
0:21:18 - Jim
I am hopeful for it. I believe it can make a difference, and I'm working with organizations that are dedicated to peacemaking to find out how it can be asserted into the process. How can, for example, ai be a mediator between two parties with differences? Now I'll tell you, my mind ran immediately to rate negotiations. How can we learn in the music business to reduce our differences with other parties, those who have to pay for the use of music? In the rate setting environment, we currently have hearings that are conducted in Washington DC, for example, for streaming rates or for using the use of a song and sound recording, et cetera, and sometimes these rate setting hearings go on for years. That's an example of why one thing we need to do is to have mediation as a possibility instead of adversarial negotiations over them.
It couldn't take too long, way too long, and getting these mediums flowing is really key to getting the revenue flowing. I mean, look at it, we now know that sound exchange is handing out about a billion dollars a year. Well, we needed to do that year sooner. We did, and I remember I was in Hollywood at the time and people would stand up at meetings and say, oh, this is like CB Radio, we shouldn't devote any attention to it. I would think, well, we'll see. And now we've seen and we know that our delays cost us the arrival of billions of dollars a year. Well, in regard to Neil writes, I think you'll see the same thing. These delays mean that we're not getting that kind of revenue stream flowing, because music could definitely be on top of it instead of sports.
0:23:25 - Dmitri
Wow. So really what? When I ask you about let's imagine a future for name, image and likeness, what you're actually saying is let's get it together and understand how this is getting monetized, what the payouts are for this, and start generating the content so that revenue's starting at all.
0:23:41 - Jim
Yeah, exactly Got it. We have compelling. We have people more compelling than LeBron James's son we do. We have people who the whole world admires and wants to spend some time interacting with, and I'm told that for ABBA, the virtual concerts are also a billion dollar a year business. So demonstrably we know that name, image and likeness can be used to generate $1 billion as if that was some huge thing. I feel like Mike Myers with his picky in his mouth saying it, but in a very real way, these delays and this doubting costs us a great deal of money. While we say, oh, digital music isn't paying what it should, we're delaying the arrival of the money and failing to go into its iterations, like NIL, for example, in a way that produces this meaningful change in this revenue flow.
0:24:42 - Dmitri
Got it. So, jim, where do you fit in with this conversation for NIL and music? What's your role gonna be here?
0:24:49 - Jim
Well, I've thought deeply about that, but I think there will be others who play a bigger role in it. I've become fascinated by mediation, as I've discussed, I'm really interested in mediation. I was involved heavily with negotiation in my previous career in the newspaper industry, the media business. It brought me the change in newspapers, brought me to music, and so now I see change in music takes us forward into other areas and makes us realize, wow, name, image and likeness are gonna make a big difference across the board. Got it? Are there any others? So I'm looking at how I can be involved with that and in particular, I'm interested in how we can grow mediation as a concept to reduce and avoid wars, because in a very real way, it's not billions of dollars, it's lives. These wars are costing us many, many lives and we need to find a way to bring them to an end as soon as possible. And when conflict erupts, there's ways that we can engage in techniques that help reduce that conflict.
0:26:03 - Dmitri
Right. Well, it's so interesting to hear about this evolution for you and um and how you're thinking about it. I admire you're always a big, a big picture thinker and kind of a yeah out of the box thinker. Um, that's you know, I think, for even those of us who haven't been in the industry as long as you to to just sort of follow along as a bit it's, it's a challenge and a stretch. It's like where is Jim going with this? But it's super interesting to hear.
0:26:28 - Jim
I get it, but I'll tell you I spent, before this call today, I spent the morning discussing these issues with the, with CMI, the crisis management initiative in Helsinki, finland, and they're very interested in how name, image and likeness can be used to help mediate conflicts and how AI can represent itself with certain images and likenesses and help produce proposals.
I'm imagining a mediator, a virtual mediator that looks and talks like you, jim, who well, precisely so, and I don't think I have to look and talk like me, but the idea that we could employ mediation in more contexts quicker and cheaper all around the globe, that this could be done with AI, this is an exciting possibility.
0:27:19 - Dmitri
Amazing, super interesting. Okay, while we've got you, Jim, are there any other trends or topics you're following that are set to disrupt the music industry in 2024, 2025?
0:27:30 - Jim
Look, I'll just say this competition, competition for attention, is probably our number one enemy. There are so many ways to catch someone's attention now, and music has to fight to even be relevant. I mean, I said it many years ago, I think it's still true still today, and that is that at some point, the movement of a sound recording, the playing of a sound recording will, will be so trivial that it will be like the movement of an eyelash. It will be hard to take notice of, very difficult to monetize, and we're almost there now that playing sound recordings was once essential to our lives. We would listen to them, we would wait for them, we would hit the record button on the recorder when it came on the rate on the radio, so obsessed were we with capturing the sound.
So there was a time when sound recordings were our lives, and I think they're becoming less relevant in terms of attention, and that matters because that means less advertisers care about them, and when advertisers stop caring about them, money will stop flowing to them. And so, in a very real way, catching the attention of the public is critical for music, and right now, sound recordings are falling relatively fast on the list of things that people care about, and so this would be my chief concern for music is it needs to remain relevant? Well, look for sync licensing purposes alone. It has to remain relevant, and it is relevant now, but that day is to be. Day is diminishing.
0:29:20 - Dmitri
You mean because of competition from AI music, that will go into sync.
0:29:24 - Jim
No well, yes, that's one reason, but competition in general, I mean, I think it's almost axiomatic today that people are more interested in the video than they are in the sound recording. They're certainly willing to monetize the video at a different level and that becomes a concern because we don't make videos as a business. We sometimes make videos we did for a while but less and less. We're not video companies. We don't sign people because of the way they look. We deal with sound recordings and so we have to herald the sound recording and keep it important to people, and that means getting it in front of them in order to get their attention. They must be able to identify the sound recording, find the owner, contact the owner, license the use of it.
These are things that are not simple and easy, and we still don't have a database of sound recordings and who owns them, and yet that's critical to their monetization. We wonder why we're getting ripped off and there is no global music database, and I fought for one for years. I'm tired of it. I think it's so obvious that we need to have a database of sound recordings and who owns them, so we know where to send the check, so we know where to get a license. But this has fallen on deaf ears, largely because the big companies figure it's not a problem for us. Everybody knows how to find the Universal Music Group. I guess that's true, but if you're an independent or not the Universal Music Group, you probably want there to be a database of rights.
0:31:03 - Dmitri
So I've got one last question for you, jim. Who else should we follow for emerging trends in music copyright and intellectual property? I think it's my last question. We'll see what you say.
0:31:13 - Jim
Look, I think Will Page is the best. I think Will Page he tracks the money. He gets down to the dollar. Will Page is the best out there. There's no one like Will for keeping track of this space, Because he does it with the money, right down to the penny. Where does it go? And, sadly, down to the penny matters, because sound recordings are worth literally pennies at this point Now, when they're tenths of a penny, and they are in some cases. We have to worry that we're not relevant to him, that we're increasingly less relevant.
0:31:53 - Dmitri
Yeah, will's book is Tarzan Economics, which I think you helped name. He's the former chief economist at Spotify and is still very active in insights and analysis of the music industry and certainly the financial aspect. Well, Jim, this has been super helpful, super great to have you back on the podcast. Thank you for kind of ringing the nil rights bell as well as the music competes with everything bell, and also the peacemaking and mediation bell as well.
0:32:23 - Jim
Thanks for having me, thanks for letting me chat about it, very appreciative.
0:32:29 - Dmitri
Thanks for listening to Music Tech Tonics. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on your favorite podcast app. We have new episodes for you every week. Did you know? We do free monthly online events that you, our lovely podcast listeners, can join? Find out more at MusicTechTonics.com and, while you're there, look for the latest about our annual conference and sign up for our newsletter to get updates. Everything we do explores the seismic shifts that shake up music and technology, the way the Earth's tectonic plates cause quakes and make mountains. Connect with Music Tech Tonics on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. That's my favorite platform. Connect with me. Dimitri Vietze, if you can spell it, We'll be back again next week, if not sooner.
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The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.