State of the Music Industry: What Happens After Streaming?

Streaming built the modern music industry, but its growth is slowing in the US and other mature markets. So what comes next? 

This week on the podcast, Dmitri sits down with Monica Corton, CEO of Go to Eleven Entertainment, to unpack where the total addressable market for music grows from here. This conversation is part two of the Rising Tide miniseries built around the Music Tectonics Conference theme, Grow the Music, Grow the Value.

Monica and Dmitri dig into global streaming adoption in emerging music markets like Africa, Southeast Asia, and India, the return of physical media through kit style formats, and why interactive music and fan experiences could be the next major revenue driver for artists, songwriters, and publishers. They also explore new licensing frontiers including medical and wellness applications, songwriter branding deals, name image and likeness rights, avatar and hologram concerts, and gaming sync opportunities in titles like Grand Theft Auto and Just Dance.

The conversation turns to generative AI and music licensing, covering attribution engines, royalty payouts for AI generated songs, and why Monica believes independent publishers need a seat at the table as AI platforms scale. They close with a candid look at publisher and label consolidation, TikTok and social media licensing rates, and whether streaming will ever be replaced or simply become one layer in a much more diversified music economy.

Whether you work in music publishing, artist management, music licensing, or music technology, this episode offers a grounded look at where the music business grows next.

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Episode Transcript

Machine transcribed

[00:00:00] Dmitri: Today's guest is Monica Corton, the CEO of Go211 Entertainment, where she helps songwriters, artists, and producers with publishing, licensing, branding, and artist development. And regular Tectonics listeners might know Monica's name and voice from our October episode titled "Should Music Publishers Be Worried About AI?"

Or as one of the panelists on our recent online mini conference, Grow the TAM, where she spoke on a panel called "How Do You Value a Catalog in 2026?" So why do I keep bringing Monica to your ears and minds? She is a stridently independent-thinking publisher who's not afraid of technology, and she's the first publisher who told me that she's bullish on AI as a revenue stream for publishers and the music industry, if we get it right.

While a lot of rights holders and administrators are following a playbook or treating songs and recordings as assets, Monica's future-proofing the value of the music she represents. Monica, what did you say to me about, uh, investors who wanna grow the TAM?

[00:00:57] Monica: Uh, what did I say to you? Well, I mean, I just think they should be more involved in helping us, you know, particularly with the legislative stuff.

I mean, the investors have a lot of sway. Um-

[00:01:09] Dmitri: You know, I remember it, uh, slightly differently. You were like, "Investors wanna grow the TAM." No, we wanna grow the TAM.

[00:01:16] Monica: We do.

[00:01:16] Dmitri: Publishers and-

[00:01:17] Monica: Yeah.

[00:01:18] Dmitri: We know all about growing the market is what you said.

[00:01:19] Monica: Yeah. I mean, the investors want that, but we're the ones that actually make it happen, so.

Yeah.

[00:01:24] Dmitri: Yeah, cool.

[00:01:25] Monica: I mean, that's, that's a goal, like-

[00:01:27] Dmitri: Sure

[00:01:27] Monica: ... as a publisher.

[00:01:28] Dmitri: Yes. So with that, I welcome you back to the show, Monica. Thanks for coming on again.

[00:01:33] Monica: You're welcome. Sorry I didn't remember what I said.

[00:01:36] Dmitri: No.

No, it's, it's all part of the narrative. We'll get into it. This episode is part of our Rising Tide miniseries, and that's the theme of this year's Music Tectonics Conference.

Rising tide lifts all boats. Grow the music, grow the value, grow the TAM, the total addressable market for music. And we want all our listeners and our conference community to show up thinking big. Yeah. Come and get business done, but let's also try to get the value of music to be up there with gaming and sports and social media.

So in this series, we've already talked about why the market's small, and in fact, Jimmy Stone argued that it's not so small, and we're gonna be talking to Vicki Nauman about how tech could be an amplifier instead of a disruptor for the value of music. But I wanna set the stage before we get to that episode next week, and today I wanna talk about what happens after streaming.

Because streaming has come in and helped grow the ubiquity of paying for music listening again, but streaming's strength as superpower is fraying a little bit around the edges. And every time that's happened in the past, some other format or listening approach starts to emerge. Sometimes, you know, they s- a format will take over, like CDs did from vinyl and cassettes, or as streaming did from downloads.

But it's hard to picture a world after streaming. And we'll get into all of that. But first, Monica, where are we in the trajectory of the growth of music streaming as a revenue stream for music?

[00:02:59] Monica: I think we're sort of in the middle really because there's so much of the world that doesn't even have it.

[00:03:05] Dmitri: Right.

[00:03:06] Monica: And there's so much of the world that is just learning how to use it. And, you know, also economies are changing in different countries. So as people have more disposable income, they'll be using streaming more in countries that aren't right now. You know, the, the other problem is that a lot of those countries don't really have a copyright law yet, or if they do, it's sort of, um, not so kosher a lot of the time.

So, in order to be part of the world market, they have to ramp that up too. But I, you know, like in Africa, that's, I mean, streaming's on phones and it's become a big thing. You know, the, problem though in Africa is the copyright part and the, and the systems for collecting money there. But, you know, everybody's working towards getting that right and eventually it will And then we'll have potentially all the countries of Africa, and all of Southeast Asia, and all these other emerging-- although none of those, nobody likes to be called an emerging territory.

I would just like to say that was my takeaway from this year's AIMP Global Summit.

[00:04:14] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:04:14] Monica: Um, and particularly the markets that have been around for a while, like India really hates emerging. and you know, I, if it was my market, I would probably feel the same way. So-

[00:04:26] Dmitri: Right.

Yeah

[00:04:27] Monica: ... um, they're just markets that are, have great potential for growth.

[00:04:30] Dmitri: Right. Well, they're in different places. They operate differently, and like you said, the economies are different, too. So it's sort of like you can't expect places where the adjusted for, currency income levels are significantly different than, you know, the United States or s- the so-called West. And I don't blame people for not wanting to be called emerging or developing or f- Third World as they were-

[00:04:54] Monica: Yeah

[00:04:55] Dmitri: once called as well. Because here is, you know, the whole world's been colonized and empires have grown and, capital markets have sort of put their imprint on a different lifestyle, different culture, different way of being in the world. And then to say, "Oh, you're emerging or you're developing," it's like, "No, we've been around for thousands of years, millennia," you know?

[00:05:16] Monica: Yeah.

[00:05:16] Dmitri: And yeah, maybe it doesn't fit your economic model necessarily, but, yeah, it's very hard to figure out the right way to talk about this. But really in terms of the idea of adoption of streaming as a consumption pattern that's paid for and people are getting remunerated for, et cetera-

[00:05:32] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:05:32] Dmitri: ... you know, that's a shift.

In s- in some ways you could say it's another form of domination of saying, "Hey, we want to put this economic model on these other parts of the world." But it is shifting.

[00:05:42] Monica: Yeah. but it's music, you know? People love music. They connect with music. there's music that, you know, they remember special parts of their lives with.

 it's always happening. It is, you know, more people wanna be part of the world market now. Like w- a lot of people in Japan have been talking to us about wanting to integrate, whereas Japan was very insular for a long time. so there's a lot of room for growth there. I think one of the most exciting things is collaborating with people all over the world, no matter where they are.

[00:06:11] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:06:12] Monica: Um, because we can do that now-

[00:06:14] Dmitri: Yeah ...

[00:06:14] Monica: with Zoom. I mean, it's not the greatest thing. No, no writers like being on Zoom, but at least you could find out whether you actually have something together before you're schlepping to God knows where and spending a lot of money on travel. you know, you can sort of test the waters and find the right people in whatever territory you're trying to get into.

[00:06:34] Dmitri: That, and also, you know, people, you know, you say Zoom's not the best model, and there's a lot of other tools that have emerged for collaboration too, where you can notate within the audio, tracks, like companies like SoundCredit have these things where you put notes in. There's other collaboration tools, and yes, the latency of the internet, especially across thousands of miles-

[00:06:54] Monica: Yeah

[00:06:54] Dmitri: is a problem, but the latency of the internet is a lot less latency than traveling all the way to this country.

[00:07:00] Monica: Yes.

[00:07:01] Dmitri: By,

[00:07:01] Monica: you know- Yeah, and I'm sure they'll figure out how to mitigate the latency somehow too. Like-

[00:07:07] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:07:07] Monica: ... there's a need for that. Somebody's gonna figure that out.

[00:07:09] Dmitri: Well, even asynchronous file sharing has gotten better and better too.

[00:07:13] Monica: Yeah. All of it.

[00:07:13] Dmitri: You know, with the

[00:07:13] Monica: bigger,

[00:07:14] Dmitri: bigger files, the way, the metadata that goes with it, all, all that kind of stuff.

[00:07:17] Monica: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

[00:07:18] Dmitri: So, but your point is, I love that you say we're in the middle of streaming because-

[00:07:22] Monica: Yeah

[00:07:23] Dmitri: ... for several years, the trade press reported that streaming was in double-digit growth.

Yeah. But more recently you know, in the US and the West at least, it slowed. But streaming, as you pointed out, streaming revenue growth in other parts of the world is still in the early days.

[00:07:36] Monica: Very early.

[00:07:37] Dmitri: Now, eventually it'll level out globally too, right? We have to look at that.

[00:07:41] Monica: Yeah.

[00:07:41] Dmitri: Or even just seeing the United States as a big market for people paying for music use, whether it's listening or B2B licensing or whatever, which begs the question

Where are the growth opportunities for growing the TAM, the total addressable market of music, once streaming levels out? Where else should publishers, labels, and artists be looking for future growth? Yes, let's grow the international. Let's keep our eye on the streaming component of the business, but what else is emerging?

I mean, I remember always feeling like you could see these formats emerging. Like, you, could see when CDs first got put out, were g- music was getting distributed on CDs for the first time, people were talking about the benefits. "Oh, it's smaller. It's more portable. It'll never break."

[00:08:23] Monica: Yeah.

[00:08:23] Dmitri: "You'll never get a scratch on a CD. Ha ha ha."

[00:08:26] Monica: Yeah.

[00:08:26] Dmitri: Or, you know, they can hold a lot more information, or you can have these other enriched data beyond just listening, and then eventually DVDs came as well, and then there was also the protection that you could put on CDs, which didn't go over so well.

But you would look at that or, or you'd see, like, the ringtone business emerge for a little while and say, "Ooh, what if everybody's got these musical ringtones and you're personalizing..." It's so funny, we're talking about personalized music now, but ringtones were personalized in a way, too. Like-

[00:08:53] Monica: Very

[00:08:54] Dmitri: ... I could, I could put a ringtone for whenever Monica called or whenever my mom called or what-

[00:08:58] Monica: Yeah

[00:08:58] Dmitri: whatever. But what-

[00:08:59] Monica: Yeah, different songs for different people.

[00:09:01] Dmitri: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:03] Monica: Yeah.

[00:09:03] Dmitri: Um, so that's personalized in a way. but, like, with streaming, it feels like people are simultaneously saying, like, "What's gonna be next?" Like, "What if this levels out? How are we gonna continue growth?" But also sort of like, "Isn't this how it's gonna be forever?"

Like-

[00:09:16] Monica: No

[00:09:17] Dmitri: ... nobody can picture what else happens.

[00:09:18] Monica: Nothing stays the same.

[00:09:20] Dmitri: Right.

[00:09:21] Monica: Nothing stays.

[00:09:21] Dmitri: So we should be looking forward, right?

 Yeah, definitely.

To see what else could, could be there. So what else do you think we should be looking at for future growth once, say, streaming levels out? Or to add to the layers of the cake as well.

[00:09:31] Monica: Have you seen these Kit albums at all?

[00:09:33] Dmitri: Oh, yeah.

[00:09:34] Monica: The, uh, yeah.

[00:09:34] Dmitri: The physical Kit? Yeah.

[00:09:35] Monica: I think they're really cool, you know, because-

[00:09:37] Dmitri: I love

Kit,

yeah

[00:09:38] Monica: ...

they come from Asia, you know, because the K-pop and J-pop and C-pop, they want t- something tangible.

[00:09:44] Dmitri: Something

tactile, yeah.

[00:09:45] Monica: Yeah. And, but the cool thing is, like, it's just a key.

You know, it has cool artwork and stuff, but it's just a key to be giving you a, different kind of experience. That artist is supposed to be richer with more, private, you know, kind of website things or blog things or even podcast things. Like- I think the flexibility of that is amazing, and the more interesting things you build into your kits, you know, the physical could come back if that could be, you know...

It's not big, so it's not like it's gonna take a lot of room up. And if you wanna get rid of your kid, you can give it to somebody else, and then they buy their key, and you could trade them. I mean, I just, I think it's really cool.

[00:10:31] Dmitri: Yeah. it's physical media that could take a lot of different formats.

I think the... Isn't there, I think there's one that's maybe in a coffin. I think maybe it was a Duran Duran one that came in the shape of a coffin. So it's, not only is it something physical and collectible, but it can have different form factors.

[00:10:46] Monica: It can have themes.

[00:10:47] Dmitri: But then it's, it's-

[00:10:47] Monica: Yeah

[00:10:48] Dmitri: ... it's a digital, it's a, it's almost like a smart device.

It's a d- way of digital connection of your physical, versus vinyl. And you can even update the music that's on it. And I, you know, they're not the only company that does it, but they've definitely made a great showing with some really cool form factors and interesting collaborations with artists as well.

[00:11:04] Monica: Yeah, plus

the price is, like, closer to what a CD used to be .

[00:11:08] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:11:09] Monica: And that will be good for everybody.

[00:11:11] Dmitri: Yeah, it gives the artist and any of the rights holders and administrators a chance to have a markup that reflects how somebody feels when they're buying that music and listening to that music, versus just unlimited exclusive jukebox all you can eat for a flat fee.

[00:11:24] Monica: Plus you

can, I think you can interact also. You could take you know, you could find out what are people looking for from that particular artist that they don't have someplace else.

[00:11:34] Dmitri: Yeah. So what else?

[00:11:35] Monica: In a really engaged fans. I think there'll probably be other people that are the ones that figure out how to make it more interactive.

I mean, you know, Spotify has been trying everything under the sun to make it more interactive. I don't know how well that's working.

[00:11:50] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:11:50] Monica: I don't know how well the videos are actually being licensed. I don't... You know? But I do think there'll be other ideas to do interactivity. It just probably won't come from those companies.

It'll come from other tech people who come up with the idea and build it and partner with them, I guess.

[00:12:09] Dmitri: Yeah. I'm so curious about the idea of interactive music because I'm picturing we've trained people now t- for the way that people, most people listen with streaming is either playlists or searching or Shazaming and then listening, um-

[00:12:26] Monica: How boring.

How boring.

[00:12:27] Dmitri: Yeah. Or text messaging each other with tracks, you know? That's a-

[00:12:30] Monica: Yeah.

[00:12:31] Dmitri: The most interactive music is text messaging somebody a track.

[00:12:35] Monica: Right. There's gotta be something better than that. And that-

[00:12:37] Dmitri: And if-

[00:12:37] Monica: That's... I don't know what it is. You know, I don't really have the idea, but I know something will come in that space-

[00:12:43] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:12:43] Monica: because that's where the creativity is.

[00:12:46] Dmitri: Right.

[00:12:46] Monica: And, you know, we're all looking h- h- what, what do people really want? What w- we don't really do is ask the people very well.

[00:12:54] Dmitri: Right.

[00:12:54] Monica: You know? The industry comes up with ideas or tech comes up with ideas, but we don't really engage with the fans saying, what would you like-"

[00:13:01] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:13:01] Monica: "from this artist?" Because the things that they like about one artist are not the things they like about another. Each one, you know, they're different people, they're different genres of music They have different needs, you know?

[00:13:11] Dmitri: Right.

[00:13:11] Monica: And, and, you know, the, whole idea of fan clubs and stuff was like, it used to be a huge business-

[00:13:17] Dmitri: Mm-hmm

[00:13:18] Monica: to manage your fan club. and you could, you know, get money from your fan club. and then that went by the wayside, you know, for a long, long time as the transition to digital, and now I guess people are starting to bring it back in a different way.

[00:13:33] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:13:34] Monica: But, like, the actual, the connection piece is what everybody's looking for.

[00:13:39] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:13:39] Monica: And, you know, there's nothing more frustrating than, like, an artist is supposedly texting you on Facebook or Instagram, and you know them, and you know that's not their voice. Like-

[00:13:50] Dmitri: Oh, yeah

[00:13:50] Monica: ... you know, you know, you can tell when it's not authentic immediately, and, that's not good.

[00:13:56] Dmitri: Yeah. '

[00:13:57] Monica: Cause the minute you turn a fan off, making them think that it's unauthentic, you know, it's hard to get them back after that.

[00:14:03] Dmitri: Right. Right. well, I like what you're... where you're going. Interactive music, fandom, and experiences are all categories that could grow the market for music.

[00:14:12] Monica: Yeah.

[00:14:12] Dmitri: The trick, of course, is, like you said, how do you match what that experience or interaction is with what fans actually want, what they actually wanna do?

That's part one, and part two is how do you monetize those pieces? the old physical world of fan clubs is probably very different than what the digital online version of it is. the advantage of online and digital is you can scale it quite a bit. If you get the product mix correct or the-

[00:14:39] Monica: Yeah

[00:14:40] Dmitri: service mix or the experience mix, whatever is correct, then all of a sudden, you know, millions can buy instead of just the people who showed up at one show. Right. Um,

[00:14:49] Monica: and- The other thing is, like, the live concert experience feeling more live. That would be amazing, and people would totally do that because, like, the minute you have kids, a lot of them can't go to anything anymore.

[00:15:00] Dmitri: Oh, you mean like live streaming, like the thing that we all tried in the pandemic and then never really quite replaced-

[00:15:06] Monica: Didn't develop ...

[00:15:06] Dmitri: yeah.

[00:15:06] Monica: Or like what, you know, those Roblox concerts that were so huge.

[00:15:09] Dmitri: Right.

Yeah.

[00:15:10] Monica: You know, something like that that doesn't cost as much, 'cause I think they didn't really work out financially.

I mean, those artists got paid a lot, but it, it wasn't a model that was sustainable in a lot of ways, I think. And, those are still things, like, I've seen demos of, people, you know, sort of as like a virtual world-

[00:15:28] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:15:28] Monica: ... where you can actually be in any part of the stage and hear different things, you know, be closer to certain instruments, all that stuff.

It's really-

[00:15:37] Dmitri: Right

[00:15:37] Monica: ... engaging.

[00:15:38] Dmitri: Yeah. I think that's a really, a really good point that- We tried a bunch of different things, and on the one hand, they were expensive to build. The tech's getting cheaper.

[00:15:47] Monica: Right.

[00:15:47] Dmitri: With all the vibe coding and some of the automation tools, you can probably start to build things that were as good as that for much less.

But you can also start to build things that are better, that are more interactive, more engaging. You know, there was the whole pathway of are we gonna wear headsets? That was a, an obstacle for a lot of people. They weren't comfortable with it. They didn't wanna buy it.

[00:16:06] Monica: Right.

[00:16:06] Dmitri: It was, it was done a little bit in a way that felt obtuse, like this does not feel more engaging, it feels less engaging.

Yeah. but then stuff has continued on gaming with just 2D screens, which has been fine. And then there's the whole ABBA Voyage, Ozzy Osbourne avatar, Kiss coming, probably a bunch of others. I'm not... I mean, some of them are in Roblox or Fortnite, some of them are in physical spaces-

[00:16:29] Monica: Yeah

[00:16:29] Dmitri: ... where they're presenting shows that are generating quite a few ticket sales.

[00:16:33] Monica: Yeah.

[00:16:34] Dmitri: And you don't like that one as much.

[00:16:37] Monica: No. But, you know, that's what's so beautiful about the business. People resonate with different things and, you know, I'm sure at some point I will be licensing something for some- one of those avatar things.

[00:16:47] Dmitri: Well, i'll

m- I'll make the pitch to you, Monica.

Like, generating a million bucks a week for somebody who owns the song catalog, name, image, and likeness, versus, no offense to our buddies in the live industry, but imagine that revenue stream for publishers.

[00:17:02] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:02] Dmitri: That's a revenue stream for publishers. once the songs are ingested, the performances are created.

I've even seen publishers who have bought this kind of like, interactive design companies-

[00:17:13] Monica: Yeah ...

[00:17:13] Dmitri: you know, because they see that as a future place where that music can be, quote, "exploited."

[00:17:18] Monica: Yeah.

[00:17:18] Dmitri: Um-

[00:17:19] Monica: I mean, we're just always looking for other licensing opportunities. Like, I firmly believe medical, devices-

[00:17:26] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:17:26] Monica: that f- I... That is gonna take off. You know, I've already seen-

[00:17:30] Dmitri: That's a great one

[00:17:30] Monica: ... some incredible stuff. And also, I just think, you know, we have this whole, basically two generations of kids who are anxious you know, beyond what they should be-

[00:17:39] Dmitri: Right

[00:17:39] Monica: ... because of being on- pads and thing and-

[00:17:42] Dmitri: Yeah, iPads and-

[00:17:43] Monica: too early in their lives

[00:17:43] Dmitri: ... those things, yeah.

[00:17:44] Monica: They're gonna have to figure out how to deal with that anxiety because you can't be like that all the time and be functioning.

[00:17:50] Dmitri: It's hard.

[00:17:50] Monica: And I think music's gonna be a huge healer for that. and, uh, you know, there's so many other possibilities within medical-

[00:17:58] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:17:58] Monica: that I think are huge. Um-

[00:18:00] Dmitri: I mean, this is funny. I'm sa- I'm saying, "Hey, what about the fact that publishers and labels and artists could have a live revenue stream that doesn't involve the traditional live market?"

[00:18:11] Monica: Right.

[00:18:11] Dmitri: We love the live market, love the experiences there as well. I actually am not sure that a, a hologram avatar IRL experience competes with a live concert.

[00:18:20] Monica: It- mm-mm.

[00:18:20] Dmitri: But it might compete with Broadway. It might compete with museums, you know? Or- Or it might be its own new category, you know?

[00:18:27] Monica: Yeah, I mean, we like to add. We don't like-

[00:18:29] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:18:30] Monica: ... to replace. Like, each, thing has a different experience.

[00:18:34] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:18:34] Monica: And, You know, then you figure out what people really like and it, changes.

Like, you know, that's what's happening with, AI right now. Like, there's a lot of change. What they originally started doing is people are getting bored. So, like, you know, what I find so ironic is they sort of finally figured out that their best customers are actually the musicians and songwriters that they ripped off.

Like, there's a lot more potential for people that are actually in music to use those tools in a way that might have a more substantial long-term effect. but, you know, we're-- all those things will be sorted out, too, as we try to muddle through the licensing now.

[00:19:15] Dmitri: Yeah. So you mentioned physical in the form of Kit Batter and things like that.

[00:19:20] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:20] Dmitri: You mentioned interactive music. I kinda wanna talk about that one a little bit more.

[00:19:24] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:24] Dmitri: Um, fandom

and experiences, we're talking about, kinda name, image, likeness, avatars. I guess name, image, and likeness also could be, like, in the sports world where it's sponsorships. It's not just-

[00:19:34] Monica: All those things

[00:19:35] Dmitri: holograms or just-

[00:19:36] Monica: But I'm, we're gonna be doing branding for songwriters.

[00:19:38] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:19:39] Monica: Yeah.

[00:19:39] Dmitri: what, what does that look like in 2026, 2027?

[00:19:42] Monica: So what my concept is, is, if you have a, a writer, you know, it has to be a substantial writer who's cross-genre with lots of hits basically. But, you know, so the songwriter would be connected to the brand, and we could u- say we did a, like, a one-year branding name and image and likeness deal, and they could pick maybe four songs.

So each quarter, there would be a different commercial from the same writer, and somehow we would tie in the lyric of the song to what they're trying to sell or the, whatever the brand is trying to do with the writer in there so that people see that, like, nothing happens without a song. And the song is, like, the most important thing.

And songwriters who are really good are very adaptable in different ways. So, you know, we have a writer now who'd be perfect for that, that he, you know, he has hits in multiple genres, and they're big. And, when I've talked about it with advertising people, they think it's a cool idea. I think there's more flexibility because when you have an artist, even if they write different songs, it still has sort of the same sound.

But when you're a songwriter The sky's the limit. You could have a very wide array of songs in your catalog because you have different kinds of artists recording them.

[00:20:55] Dmitri: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Great. Great. Okay. I like that. I'll be curious to see how that kind of emerges and with technology, a lot of different things could happen with the songwriter and the songwriting and the brand as well.

I mean, that- Yeah ... it's like you said, with interactive music, I don't know what it's gonna look like, but that's what people want. This'll be interesting to see. I don't know what it looks like, but it'll be interesting to see. we talked a little bit about gaming as well as, almost like concerts in games, but I think there's all,

you

[00:21:20] Monica: know-

No, no.

Gaming in general is awesome. We love being in games.

[00:21:23] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:21:23] Monica: Especially music games. Like we were in, Just Dance. We had a Harry Belafonte song, then it, we did so well, we were in like two other Just Dances. It was awesome.

[00:21:31] Dmitri: Oh, that's cool.

Yeah.

[00:21:33] Monica: Um, you know, when I first started with Boston, Guitar Hero and Rock Band were out, and those were huge, and they were really only licensing "More Than a Feeling," and I called both company.

I'm like, "Why are you only licensing 'More Than a Feeling?' We have so many songs that would be great for this." And they said, "Well, we thought Boston was hard to clear," only because it took a long time for them to clear "More Than a Feeling" from the previous administrator. So I said, "No, we, we wanna license to you.

I could do it today." And so we added like six songs, and that quadrupled the royalties in one accounting period. So I mean, those-

[00:22:08] Dmitri: That's cool

[00:22:08] Monica: ... those are the things that grow the TAM. It's like-

[00:22:10] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:22:10] Monica: ... you know, cross-pollinating successes, and making sure that you're getting traction in all the places that you should be getting traction.

[00:22:19] Dmitri: I love this. I mean, what you just described with gaming is similar to what you described with healthcare and wellness.

[00:22:24] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:24] Dmitri: It's, I mean, like we're saying like, "Yeah, keep going with streaming. Keep licensing music that way. People keep paying your subscription fees." But I've always... I mean, the thing about music, the sort of like the, the kryptonite and the superpower of music is that it can go with other things.

[00:22:39] Monica: Yeah.

[00:22:39] Dmitri: On the one hand, it can be less interactive, and so it doesn't get paid for as much as something that takes all of your attention. But on the other hand, it goes with everything. And to imagine it going with medical prescriptions, to me it's like we talk about, oh, it's the soundtrack of gaming, it's the soundscrap- track of social media, it's the soundtrack of film and TV.

Now it's the soundtrack of medicine. That's really interesting. And in gaming, y- well, you already mentioned two use cases when we're talking about growing the market. One of them is, live performance within gaming.

[00:23:08] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:08] Dmitri: Another one is, part of a game, where the song itself-

[00:23:11] Monica: Being in the game

[00:23:12] Dmitri: ... is part of the game.

[00:23:13] Monica: Yeah.

[00:23:13] Dmitri: But there's a third one, too, or at least another one. discovery of music within gaming is another one. Listening to music, like, you know, you're in a "Grand Theft Auto" car and the radio has music on it.

[00:23:24] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:24] Dmitri: Or,

[00:23:25] Monica: And it's every, every time period in "Grand Theft Auto." Like, I, I licensed April in Paris to "Grand Theft Auto."

You know, it's everything.

[00:23:33] Dmitri: Yeah.

Oh, I see.

[00:23:34] Monica: 'Cause it depends on what the scene is.

[00:23:34] Dmitri: Oh, yeah, yeah.

It's the whole

catalog.

[00:23:35] Monica: You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a stan- April in Paris is a standard, you

[00:23:38] Dmitri: know? It doesn't have to be discovery of new music. It can also be the Fleetwood Mac-ization of, uh

[00:23:42] Monica: Yeah. I mean, I think that's really what's happening, why that catalog is so happening right now.

[00:23:48] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:23:48] Monica: It's like, 'cause those songs are really good and very solid. And, they're discovering these songs, which are very different from the songs they're hearing on the radio. Yeah. And, and th- and that's why back catalog's doing well.

[00:24:01] Dmitri: I assume-

[00:24:02] Monica: Now licensing, more licensing always begets more licensing.

Like, the more places you have your song, the more opportunities you have for people to s- hear it, and that always leads to new opportunities.

[00:24:13] Dmitri: To me, it feels like one of the powers of streaming was that it really pushed the biz dev contractual possibilities of music. I know as a publisher that's been a publisher for a long time, you're like, "Oh, we've been able to license all sorts of things over the decades."

But I feel like in terms of that jump to digital and monetizing via digital and understanding a little more creative things than just mechanical for records-

[00:24:40] Monica: Yeah ...

[00:24:41] Dmitri: it's allowed us to be more creative about how music gets used in these new formats. It used to be, "We don't have a way to do that. We don't have contracts for that.

We don't understand what the limitations are around that license," et cetera. There was a lot of tension around building out what is the contract, what is the license, who gets paid on what part of it.

[00:25:00] Monica: You mean from tech people?

[00:25:01] Dmitri: From t- no, from both sides. from the music industry side too.

They, there w- things are c- hey, we wanna-

[00:25:07] Monica: Oh, because we didn't understand

the tech.

[00:25:08] Dmitri: Yeah. Yeah. We wanna do... Or not just the tech, but like, what is... I don't know. We don't understand how society works anymore. It's like- ... oh, name, image, and likeness is crazy, right? Like-

[00:25:17] Monica: Yeah

[00:25:17] Dmitri: ... you know, like we, we've had Spencer Klein from, Morrison Foerster on the show to talk about the Kiss deal.

[00:25:23] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:23] Dmitri: And, and saying, "Oh yeah, we helped them license name, image, and likeness, and biometric data."

[00:25:28] Monica: Yeah.

[00:25:29] Dmitri: Record contracts don't have biometric data.

[00:25:31] Monica: Yeah.

[00:25:31] Dmitri: Publishing contracts don't have biometric data.

[00:25:34] Monica: Yeah.

[00:25:34] Dmitri: So all of a sudden it's like, wait, who gets to do this deal, right?

[00:25:38] Monica: Right.

[00:25:38] Dmitri: Is it the label? Is it the publisher?

Is it the artist? Is it the manager? Nobody can do the deal 'cause there's no contracts about it. I mean, technically the artist can as a celebrity,

[00:25:45] Monica: right? Well, typically, right. So you would, you know, the label would go to the artist, the artist would determine, the artist's lawyer would determine what they think it should fall under.

Mostly, probably they would negotiate it.

[00:25:55] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:25:55] Monica: And they would grant the right if, you know. You don't really wanna give away your rights to other people-

[00:26:00] Dmitri: Right

[00:26:00] Monica: ... unless you've been compensated for it. And you wanna-

[00:26:03] Dmitri: Right

[00:26:03] Monica: ... understand especially if it's something really new, how are you really being used?

How is it, how are people gonna perceive it?

[00:26:09] Dmitri: Right. and you can't just throw in that, what is that? For the rest of time and into the universe? What is the expression?

[00:26:15] Monica: And now known hereafter.

[00:26:17] Dmitri: Say it again.

[00:26:18] Monica: Forever, uh, now known or hereafter. You know, what, what is it called? Now I won't be able to think of it.

That's- It's now known-

[00:26:24] Dmitri: That's

okay ...

[00:26:25] Monica: now, I'm trying to think of the acronym. It's, it's basically eternity like-

[00:26:29] Dmitri: Yes. Yeah. And then isn't there also one for geography to go through, like, the entire universe or something like that?

[00:26:35] Monica: Some people say universe, some people say world, some people flip back and forth.

[00:26:39] Dmitri: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't necessarily know with these new technology and new interactions what limitations should be put on it.

[00:26:47] Monica: Yeah.

[00:26:48] Dmitri: You know what I mean? Because we don't know what-

[00:26:49] Monica: I mean, technically we all should be saying the universe because we don't know-

[00:26:52] Dmitri: Space

[00:26:52] Monica: ... is there gonna be space travel if people are listening to music up there?

Like, you know?

[00:26:55] Dmitri: Oh, that's a different right. That's a different right. I didn't sign away my space travel rights.

[00:27:00] Monica: Well, that's why it's universe, you know?

[00:27:02] Dmitri: Right, and metaverse.

[00:27:04] Monica: Yeah, metaverse. Whatever. I was, I was actually excited about the metaverse thing too until it fell apart.

[00:27:10] Dmitri: Well, so that's the thing.

Like, it fell apart in the headset form, sorta. I mean, you know, Meta put a b- billions of dollars into it and then walked it back. the Meta, the Oculus apps, Quest Ops, App Store, whatever it's called-

[00:27:21] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:27:21] Dmitri: ... didn't really do what

[00:27:23] Monica: What they thought it was gonna do

[00:27:24] Dmitri: Facebook hoped it was gonna do.

But, you know, if people are buying Kiss and they did the ABBA thing, that's not that different. I know that it's IRL, but, you know, you can syndicate those holograms or avatars into multiple formats, 3D, 2D, IRL, digital-

[00:27:37] Monica: Yeah

[00:27:38] Dmitri: ... et cetera. so that's... You know, I don't think it's dead. I think people are kind of poo-pooed it because the headsets were awkward.

There were no legs-

[00:27:45] Monica: Yeah

[00:27:45] Dmitri: ... on some of the people. You know, all that k- all that kind of stuff, but I don't think it's dead. I think that, the, the Obi-Wan-

[00:27:50] Monica: We need a new iteration ...

[00:27:51] Dmitri: the Obi-Wan Kenobi dream of the hologram- ... on your kitchen table, your friends come over to watch the show at your house.

[00:27:57] Monica: Yeah.

[00:27:58] Dmitri: I mean, that's, what sport does, you know?

[00:28:01] Monica: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, I'm open, whatever.

[00:28:04] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:28:04] Monica: Whatever's

gonna happen. I mean, I-

[00:28:04] Dmitri: I'll license it to you

[00:28:06] Monica: ... you know, like, I used to love driving the boat in the thing that we, the metaverse thing that you had-

[00:28:10] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:28:10] Monica: ... at your meeting. So, like, I was having so much fun driving the boat, 'cause I ha- we had a boat when I was growing up.

[00:28:15] Dmitri: Yeah. Like... Yeah. So for, for listeners who weren't at our pandemic-era Music Tectonics conferences, we rented a venue in the metaverse so that people, who maybe didn't grow up with Roblox and Fortnite could have that experience of, like, what's it feel like to actually be there with people you know interacting.

[00:28:32] Monica: Yeah.

[00:28:32] Dmitri: And in addition to a festival stage and an exhibit hall, we had a beachside venue with boats. You could actually drive the boats. It was so fun and playful.

[00:28:41] Monica: It was so fun.

[00:28:41] Dmitri: And I remember seeing Sherry Hu from Water and Music in a boat with some other startups, or, this guy from Bose, the headphone speaker company, hanging out on boats.

And it was just such a great way to, network. one music industry consultant, I couldn't kick him out fast enough and, he was kind of a, a little bit, I would say, cynical about it originally. "Oh, this is silly, doing a music industry, a business thing inside the metaverse." But when we were shutting down the venue, he-

[00:29:06] Monica: He was the last one

[00:29:07] Dmitri: he was the last one- Mm

[00:29:08] Dmitri: ... taking pictures, selfies of his avatar, and he said, "This is better than my bar mitzvah. I haven't had this much fun since my bar mitzvah."

[00:29:15] Monica: Exactly.

[00:29:16] Dmitri: And then another, music industry veteran Um, a guy was dressed as a woman. I was like, "Oh, wow, I didn't get to know you this way before you got into the Metaverse."

And he's like, "I couldn't figure out how to do the clothing." 'Cause you could actually change your, your clothes. You know, there's a whole different set of rituals and processes to actually be in those worlds.

[00:29:32] Monica: I worked for a really long time on a Metaverse version of The Addams Family when the musical was on Broadway.

'Cause, you know, with the Addams Family theme, which I used to represent, we were always trying to find new opportunities. And, you know, one of the, pieces of building it was the costumes, that people could buy the costumes, different, you know, boas-

[00:29:52] Dmitri: Wow

[00:29:52] Monica: ... or whatever. And that's where the money really catches up.

People buying-

[00:29:57] Dmitri: The merch

[00:29:57] Monica: . The, yeah. The, you know, it's 25 cents, but 25 cents here and here and thousands of people, and it all adds up, you know?

[00:30:04] Dmitri: That's like songwriting merch. That's what that is, right?

[00:30:07] Monica: I guess. Yeah, we have to figure that one out. We have to figure out songwriting merch. We don't really have merch.

[00:30:12] Dmitri: I think you just did. You just did. I mean, if it, if it get- if it gets-

[00:30:15] Monica: Well, other than a lyr- you know, lyrics on a shirt and stuff like that.

[00:30:18] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:30:19] Monica: You know? Yeah. Or lyrics... There is merch. I- that's not true. Like, I've, you know, I've seen table, you know, china with famous lyrics and-

[00:30:27] Dmitri: Oh, that's cool

[00:30:27] Monica: ... there, there is a lot of opportunity for that.

But I think- A lot of the shirts I'm seeing, like in commercial things, I'm not sure if they're licensed 'cause it's hard for me to believe that some of those bands would license that to a general store.

[00:30:41] Dmitri: Oh yeah, it just depends sometimes. It's, it reminds me of the old days of sync where with advertisements, you know, certain bands didn't wanna be associated with certain- Right

products. And it's a little more ubiquitous now, although it's not totally. And, and I still wanna see sync grow. That's the other thing.

[00:30:55] Monica: It, it is. It will.

[00:30:57] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:30:57] Monica: I mean, we're, you know, we're in the great consolidation right now. Even-

[00:31:00] Dmitri: Mm

[00:31:00] Monica: ... even publishing, I mean, you know, Concord and BMG, and Primary Wave, and Kobalt.

 the only thing that that tells me is we're about to have an explosion, which I can't wait. Like, because-

[00:31:11] Dmitri: Wait, make

that connection for me. Why, why is the consolidation of these publishers and labels Why will that lead to an explosion? '

[00:31:18] Monica: 'cause the writers, the majority of the writers there aren't gonna get any attention.

It's not possible. They're not gonna, like... They always fire people. Mm. And they usually fire the people that know the most. And, now you have twice the catalog with less people.

[00:31:33] Dmitri: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:33] Monica: It's just not humanly possible to manage that effectively.

[00:31:36] Dmitri: So you think more indie publishers will emerge as a result.

Is that what you're saying?

[00:31:39] Monica: I... Yeah, I think there'll be more of a breakup. Though a l- I think writers from those places that aren't getting any attention will leave.

[00:31:47] Dmitri: I thought you were flipping it. I thought you were saying the overhead will be reduced, and so they'll be able to focus on a catalog and, and, exploit it at scale in a way that-

[00:31:55] Monica: No

[00:31:55] Dmitri: nobody could when they were all broken up.

[00:31:57] Monica: No.

[00:31:58] Dmitri: No. Okay.

[00:31:58] Monica: They're not broken up at all. I mean-

[00:32:00] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:32:00] Monica: ... when I was doing music supervision in the '90s, you would have to go to at least 50 companies to clear music. I just did a film, it's a documentary, but filled with music. I had seven companies. That's it.

[00:32:13] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:32:14] Monica: like, it's a big difference.

[00:32:15] Dmitri: Yeah. And- And,

[00:32:16] Monica: and because there's less voices, there's less ideas, there's less innovation, there's less everything.

[00:32:22] Dmitri: Yeah. We haven't talked about AI at all, but I need to take a quick break for a message, and when we come back, I wanna talk about that, and I also wanna talk about what comes after streaming.

That's what we said we were gonna talk about, so-

[00:32:34] Monica: Yeah.

Sorry

[00:32:34] Dmitri: ... we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. this has been super fun, Monica. We've been brainstorming, like, what else should we be looking at for future growth? And I love all the ideas we've been talking about. You've added a lot of ideas.

I've thrown some in the mix. We've explored some. We've been honest about which ones we don't know about. We talked about interactive music. What's that gonna look like? I don't even know if anybody cares to remix tracks at scale, like whether everybody wants to do it. Unless they can put it on their Instagram stories and their TikTok videos-

[00:33:05] Monica: Hmm

[00:33:05] Dmitri: then they might want to. But, or they can personalize it somehow. I, my vision, actually, this ties into AI. My vision is that if a Taylor Swift or a BTS or somebody said, " I've got the basis of my next song, but I wanna see 1,000 versions and come up... A, 1,000 fan collaborative versions where you can use online tools," you don't even have to call them AI tools.

"Use online tools to help me come up with a bridge or change the lyrics." Or for a certain price, you can buy the song, and on the special Taylor Swift player, you can play your version of the song to your friends, like, at a party in real life or so-

[00:33:43] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:33:43] Dmitri: ... something like that. That might be the interactive side.

Look, we had an episode where we talked about this before, and I know your opinions about, but is generative AI a growth path? Is it gonna destroy the music industry, or is this a growth path for music?

[00:33:56] Monica: I, I, you know, the, every new technology, everybody's like doom and gloom. "It's gonna, the end!" You know, beta cassettes.

"The end of movies!" Like, like, it's always like that. I think, you know, great writers and great artists are always gonna have a job, and, they will rise to the top. But, you know, I do think it will probably kick out a lot of DIY people who don't sound that different than the gen AI.

[00:34:19] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:34:19] Monica: Um, and but they're not making money, most of them anyway. Like, you know, they all go in with pie in the sky ideas, but they have no idea how to manage a career. And why would they know? Like-

[00:34:32] Dmitri: Mm

[00:34:32] Monica: ... they're, they're just playing with music. They don't know how to monetize it. They don't know how to register it.

They don't know any of those things. but the market, you know, I think, I think the opportunity for AI for established writers and artists will be good if we get the licensing right. Yeah. And right now, on the publishing side, I mean, I'm sure masters side too is, you know, we've been trying to find an attribution engine that we all feel comfortable with and that we believe will work, and that is a much harder -

[00:35:07] Dmitri: Task

[00:35:07] Monica: you know, there's not a lot of them. The technology's sort of all over the place. Everybody's ideas about them is all over the place. you know, Surreal was just bought by Warner. I mean, there's a lot of movement, so-

[00:35:19] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:35:19] Monica: ... you know, we're testing now and we're gonna be testing and, you know, it will sort itself out, but it's not an easy thing to resolve.

If we can do that, if we can get an attribution engine that we can, you know, mostly rely on, then every output will have payments to existing songwriters and, artists and producers, you know. And it's a matter of, like, we have to decide, how long is that tail gonna be on the songs that influence it?

I think it needs to be a much shorter list, you know, like, not more than, like, five-

[00:35:52] Dmitri: Yeah ...

[00:35:53] Monica: songs or masters. But we're not having that discussion yet.

[00:35:57] Dmitri: I think that's, Monica, I think that's key, and that was something I heard in the lobby of the Music Business Conference, this past year-

[00:36:03] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:36:03] Dmitri: ... was this idea of we just assume, oh, it's gonna be impossible, attribution's gonna be impossible because once thousands of song are made with thousands of songs which are made with thousands of songs, it'll be so hard to track.

You know, maybe cryp- maybe blockchain can do it, blah, blah, blah. But ultimately, it doesn't matter whether it's technology power. It's more just like the payouts don't make sense at a certain point-

[00:36:24] Monica: Yeah, they don't make sense

[00:36:25] Dmitri: ... so that limit- limiting to say, you know, sure, maybe the model's been trained on music as a whole, but this song has really been based off of these three songs.

You said five. I'm saying like two to, two to three songs, then you get really clear about like, "I was influenced by this," because it's really a style. Sometimes it's a song, but-

[00:36:45] Monica: But it depends on what it is 'cause like we just saw a demo for one of these companies and, like, all the s- the top, the biggest influence was like .03, and it went down from there.

[00:36:55] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:36:56] Monica: So, but it was also the sample that they had, you know. that's why we need to te- we need to see, like, what happens when you get these outputs?

[00:37:03] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Monica: What do they really look like? And then, then we can sort of do the math. but you know, is it, is it fair to do the top five songs, or is it fair to do the top 60% of the song?

I don't know, 'cause we don't know enough about, like, how it looks.

But-

[00:37:16] Dmitri: Well, and maybe it should be a little bit of both. Maybe you say, "Hey, there's a little bit of a kinda blank cassette license on an AI song that goes into the industry as a whole," and then there's a lot that also goes to what influenced those particular songs.

I mean-

[00:37:31] Monica: well,

there... No, I wouldn't take away from the writers and artists that are-

[00:37:35] Dmitri: No, but-

[00:37:35] Monica: ... that, that are actually doing the influencing. You know, there's gonna be millions-

[00:37:38] Dmitri: No, but, but, but it, but it-

[00:37:38] Monica: ... of outputs, and most of them aren't gonna make money. Like-

[00:37:42] Dmitri: Yeah ...

[00:37:43] Monica: it's, cumulative, you know?

[00:37:44] Dmitri: Yeah. do you think the licenses will be both licensing the training data for the output, but then also royalties-

[00:37:51] Monica: For the input

[00:37:51] Dmitri: paid out? For the input, I'm sorry. For the input. but then for the songs that get outputted, but then will they also, will the original songwriters and the original master recording, rights holders get something on the royalties if those songs get released in the public?

[00:38:05] Monica: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Like that there has to be attribution for the songs that actually influence that output. And-

[00:38:12] Dmitri: No, i, I understand, but i, I'm-

[00:38:13] Monica: ... because they're all, they're all derivative works. Like they-

[00:38:15] Dmitri: I'm asking you something more specific, though.

[00:38:17] Monica: What?

[00:38:18] Dmitri: Can I get... I'm a songwriter.

[00:38:20] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:20] Dmitri: Let's say I'm a songwriter. Can I get paid for training it so that a customer can make their own song and listen to it at home?

I'd like to get paid for that.

[00:38:28] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:29] Dmitri: Right? They made this new song that used, and 10% of that song was based on my song.

[00:38:33] Monica: Right.

[00:38:33] Dmitri: Now, that customer who outputted that song, they go and they release it on Spotify and they make-

[00:38:38] Monica: Right

[00:38:38] Dmitri: ... a million dollars. Can I also please get paid on the royalties from that?

[00:38:42] Monica: Yes. That, that's why the information of what those songs are and the proportion of their influence, so like one song could have a 20% influence, and that has to be prorated over the 20%, but another song could have 10% and that song needs to be prorated over 10 regardless of how many people wrote and published that song.

[00:39:05] Dmitri: Right.

[00:39:05] Monica: So it gets very complicated when you see that most hip hop songs and pop songs usually have like five to seven writers and 14 to 16 publishers.

[00:39:18] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:39:18] Monica: If you're saying you're gonna have five different songs that fit-

[00:39:21] Dmitri: It's exponential

[00:39:21] Monica: ... it's very complicated.

[00:39:22] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:39:22] Monica: So we need to have a very good system for attaching that information so that when it's used-

[00:39:29] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:39:30] Monica: in third party licensing, those people get paid.

[00:39:33] Dmitri: Yeah. I wanna put in one more category that we didn't talk about. Now that we tackled AI, yeah, we solved it. Luckily- ... you, you, you, our Music Tectonics listeners are lucky we solved AI on this episode- ... me and Monica. Um, but we didn't even talk about social media.

You know, like-

[00:39:48] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:39:48] Dmitri: ... YouTube has brought a lot of money into the music industry. They've publicly said, "We wanna outpay Spotify for the music industry." Like, hell yeah. Anyone else- Hell yeah ... wanna outpay Spotify? Yeah. Where's Meta and TikTok in this? I mean-

[00:40:00] Monica: Yeah

[00:40:00] Dmitri: ... I guess there, there is that question of sort of like, isn't there more opportunity to grow the TAM with better licensing for social video?

[00:40:07] Monica: Oh,

yes. Yeah, but you have to have a willing partner, you know? The TikTok one's the worst, and-

[00:40:12] Dmitri: Really?

[00:40:13] Monica: Uh, yeah. But now they have technically a new owner, and I'm sure those licenses weren't very long to begin with. I mean, TikTok came in kind of as I was leaving my last job, so I haven't negotiated with them yet or done it.

[00:40:27] Dmitri: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:27] Monica: But I, I know the abysmal royalties from everybody complaining about it. and it would be really good if we could bring those up because TikTok's making money hand over fist.

[00:40:39] Dmitri: It's so crazy to me how they can go and do these deals that everyone's like, "Oh, these deals kinda suck, but we gotta do something," and then the market rate gets shaken out over decades.

It seems like it's taking forever to s-

[00:40:52] Monica: Well-

[00:40:53] Dmitri: I mean, like-

[00:40:53] Monica: Yeah. Well, I think it's because we were, because the independent publishers were more passive in a lot of the other tech changes, and that's why we're not for AI.

[00:41:01] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:41:02] Monica: Because I don't wanna see that ever happen again.

[00:41:04] Dmitri: Right.

[00:41:05] Monica: And I think, you know, the bigger companies, they're just perfectly happy to take, like, a big check, and we-

We, you know, like, eventually it'll be okay. As, you know, for them, everybody's-

[00:41:15] Dmitri: It's a down payment ...

[00:41:15] Monica: a social security number. It's like they don't have, you know... So I'm sure, you know, plenty of people there have direct relationships, but they don't have direct relationships with everybody that r-rep represent.

Whereas an independent, we know our writers. We talk to them regularly.

[00:41:28] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:41:28] Monica: And we have, we, we feel that responsibility in a very different way.

[00:41:33] Dmitri: Okay. We could go, obviously we could go on and on about all these different possibilities that could grow the music industry, and I think we just did a great brainstorm.

There's more probably out there, and there's a lot of nuance within this that we can't predict. But we've sort of laid out a bunch of possible areas that could grow, the total addressable market of music, rise the tide for all, et cetera. But we haven't answered the question, what happens after streaming?

Which is the episode title. Will something come after streaming? We saw these format shifts every decade or two. is streaming gonna get supplanted the way cassettes, 8-tracks did? Wax cylinders? what comes after streaming, Monica?

[00:42:13] Monica: I don't know. Some- But somebody's gonna come up with something.

You know? I'm open to whatever it is. I wish streaming had better sound. I wish, for everybody, that wasn't complicated or expensive.

[00:42:24] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:42:24] Monica: I wish, streaming had like,

I don't know, it just feels so empty. Like when I would listen to a record or a CD and I could like work with my sound system and really hear all the parts, that's not the experience that you have when you're streaming. And, and-

[00:42:41] Dmitri: Yeah

[00:42:41] Monica: ... to a large extent, we now have all these people that listen differently, they don't know the difference between something that really sounds good and something that doesn't because th- they're not familiar.

[00:42:52] Dmitri: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:52] Monica: And so, you know, I would like to see that get better. I would like to see music literacy get better. You know, there's so many things to work on that could be products or services.

[00:43:04] Dmitri: Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it makes me think And I sort of alluded to this in the first half of the episode, that maybe nothing comes after streaming, but streaming becomes this baseline that sticks around.

So like-

[00:43:17] Monica: It gets enhanced.

[00:43:18] Dmitri: Yeah, enhanced. but we wouldn't call it something different than streaming. I mean, already there's, you know, higher resolution listening.

[00:43:24] Monica: Eh, never know

[00:43:25] Dmitri: There's,

there's-

[00:43:25] Monica: I wouldn't...

Uh, the jury's out. I mean-

[00:43:27] Dmitri: The technology might change, right?

[00:43:29] Monica: It-

[00:43:29] Dmitri: You might have lower latency.

[00:43:30] Monica: Yeah.

[00:43:30] Dmitri: You might have fatter files.

[00:43:31] Monica: Yeah.

[00:43:32] Dmitri: You might have better internet. You might have, maybe it goes to physical where you unlock things. But I, I think, this is my feeling, what comes after streaming is diversification.

[00:43:41] Monica: Yeah.

[00:43:42] Dmitri: You know? Like, sure, there's always been a diversity of revenue streams, whether you're on the recorded side, the publishing side, or the live side, there's always been diversification of, revenue streams and formats, ways that people either listen or license.

But I feel like streaming's gonna stick around because... I, I mean, the way that streaming gets delivered could change. Like, a lot of what you just said had to do with maybe there's some enriched data so that you can experience music with writing, with video, with other stuff. And maybe it's higher bandwidth, higher resolution so that you can hear the richness the way you could on an old record versus on crappy headphones.

[00:44:24] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:24] Dmitri: But that's really a hardware issue, that's not a streaming issue-

[00:44:27] Monica: Right

[00:44:27] Dmitri: ... in a lot of ways. 'Cause, you know, Qobuz, TIDAL, even Spotify and Apple have higher resolution versions and that's one of the thoughts is that I don't think people know that they want that, but I think a lot of people don't know that, you know, 'cause they only heard it a certain way.

[00:44:40] Monica: Right.

[00:44:41] Dmitri: But I think over time some of the hardware's gonna come down. I mean, like you can spend $100,000 on a home speaker system, $100,000, and you probably could... Some, you know, some people can't hear that well because their hearing is going.

[00:44:54] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:54] Dmitri: Uh, but you're probably gonna hear some difference, but, you know, that's not really gonna ever take over at scale.

Like, the-

[00:45:01] Monica: No

[00:45:01] Dmitri: ... mass consumer's not gonna spend, you know-

[00:45:03] Monica: No, but I, but I... Like, there'll be other technologies that improve sound that-

[00:45:08] Dmitri: Right, and the speaker and the har- I'm saying the hardware, too. The hardware could-

[00:45:11] Monica: Yeah, yeah

[00:45:11] Dmitri: ... become much cheaper to hear great stuff. It's crazy that it takes decades and decades to get to that evolution.

But I'm thinking that sh- the question... I provocatively ask the question of what comes after streaming.

[00:45:23] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:24] Dmitri: partly 'cause we don't know, but partly 'cause I think what we're seeing is more multiple revenues, multiple formats, multiple licensing, multiple listening opportunities. We will use music and participate in music in multiple streams instead of it just being vinyl, just being cassettes, just being CDs.

[00:45:42] Monica: Right. And as publishers, we really want it. We want it to be audiovisual, 'cause the minute it falls into an audiovisual thing, we're not tied to any statutory rate or anything else the government's doing to control us in performances and mechanicals So it's an opportunity.

[00:45:57] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:45:57] Monica: Um, and it, and it's much better for revenue if-

[00:46:01] Dmitri: Well,

[00:46:01] Monica: and, and-

if it is mul- if it has an audiovisual compo- component ...

[00:46:06] Dmitri: and, that speaks to the monetary value of passive versus active versus interactive listening, right?

[00:46:12] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:12] Dmitri: If it's using more of your senses, if you're more of your soul and your body and your attention is being used while you engage with music, it makes sense for it to cost more.

It's not, you don't have to pay for a cookbook to cook while you listen to music. Pay for the ingredients to cook-

[00:46:28] Monica: Right

[00:46:29] Dmitri: ... while you listen to music. You don't have to get your fitness app going while you listen to music or your s- new shoes or whatever to run in. So it makes sense that if you have to wear things, see things, taste things as part of music, that it would be worth more.

[00:46:44] Monica: Yeah. Well, it's also the fact that, you know, we've had our performance royalties and mechanical royalties controlled for a really long time, and we can't get Congress to let go. You know, they have... The whole point was that they thought we were gonna be the monopolists where like- ... but they don't control any of the tech companies who have billions of dollars.

Like, it's so hypocritical, really.

[00:47:07] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:47:07] Monica: but I think until-

[00:47:08] Dmitri: Yeah, the law, the laws

are, uh-

[00:47:09] Monica: Until-

The,

[00:47:10] Dmitri: the

laws might be antiquated a little bit on this

[00:47:12] Monica: Yeah, but you can't change this stuff until we get a tech knowledgeable Congress, you know?

[00:47:17] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:47:17] Monica: Like, I worked really hard to try and get this representative in my district 'cause the seat hasn't been open for 35 years.

I wanted Alex Boris because he's a computer scientist. And I, you know, I campaigned for him, and he was not the candidate that was supported by the current, House person.

[00:47:36] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:47:37] Monica: And he lo- he lost, but not, he was, it was close. But, you know, the fact that we only have one computer scientist in the House, I mean, and we're living in the age of AI, like, that is troubling.

[00:47:48] Dmitri: Yeah.

[00:47:48] Monica: Really, really troubling.

[00:47:49] Dmitri: That's a really good point. Yeah. These things take time. We forget. At the speed of tech, the speed of social media, the speed of AI, we think that everything should go at that speed. But laws and people and relationships and biz dev and even some of the innovation like hardware- Mm-hmm

it doesn't go at this. I mean, it's definitely speeding up, but it doesn't go at that speed. So if we ask this question What happens after streaming? I wanna say that our answer, mine and Monica's answer-

[00:48:14] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:48:14] Dmitri: ... I don't know, I wanna see if I'm on the same page with you, Monica.

[00:48:16] Monica: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:16] Dmitri: It's not about after streaming, it's things that go with streaming, just like things go with music.

It's that streaming won't be the only thing. That's what comes after streaming.

[00:48:24] Monica: It'll grow into something else, you know, or be in tandem with other things.

[00:48:29] Dmitri: That's what I think.

[00:48:30] Monica: Yeah.

[00:48:30] Dmitri: I think that. Okay. I have a couple more questions for you before we wrap up.

[00:48:34] Monica: Sure.

[00:48:34] Dmitri: But at least we answered the question.

[00:48:38] Monica: Sort of.

[00:48:38] Dmitri: Sort of. Yeah. Sort of answered. But I think it's important to talk about, 'cause I think people are thinking about that. Oh, we s- we've been trained, if you've been in the music industry or if you've studied the music industry, we've been trained that every 10 years something changes significantly and we're like, "Oh, streaming is topping out in America."

Well, it's not. The growth is slowing. What comes next? What's gonna happen next? And we saw the failure of NFTs and we saw the failure of headsets as a primary form of music engagement. That means those things aren't taking it, but really we're seeing these layers, layers working in tandem with music listening.

So let me ask you a question. When you look at the trajectory of music listening and uses, Monica, can you see a world where the music industry unites and is able to grow the market as a whole by being collectively intentional? And if so, what will it take?

She laughs.

[00:49:30] Monica: I don't think the music business will ever do anything collectively intentional, because there are so many different factions and different- Mm

needs. You know? Like, large companies function very different from smaller companies. Publishers function very different from record people, you know, who have nothing to do with agents, who have nothing to do with all the touring. You know, like there's-

[00:49:50] Dmitri: Yeah, the touring side

[00:49:50] Monica: ... it's just very divergent.

Yeah. But, I do think that, you know, what would be good, and one thing that I hope that Music Tectonics will help foster, which is why I got involved in the first place, is the communication between tech and music.

[00:50:05] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:50:05] Monica: Because I think it's been so contentious for so long, it's not healthy. I mean, it was never healthy, but it's really not healthy.

And the fact that it's taken us, you know, almost three years to sue all these AI platforms 'cause they thought it was fair use is just a load of crap, you know? And so, like, it's not only the licensing piece, but, like, we should be collaborating at the development piece. Hmm. What do, what really, what are the needs of the industry and fans and tech?

And then how do we map that out? Like, I've been telling tech for a long time, "You don't need to license every song that was ever written to launch a platform. You should pick 1,000 songs that work really well with whatever you're doing and see if the platform works and start to make money," because otherwise your investors are gonna say adios, which happens a lot, I know.

 because when they get to licensing, they don't have people that actually know licensing doing it. They have some tech lawyer, and then the majors drag it out, like, really long. I mean, every tech person I've ever talked to, when they get to me, that's the story they always say.

Because when they get to me, I ask them the questions, they answer my questions. Invariably, I ask them something nobody else asks them. And then I'm like, "Okay, if we do it like this, I'm okay." And they're like, "I wish I could've talked to you in the beginning," every time. But this, it's, we have to stop that.

We have to find a way to work together that is a lot better, you know, congenial and collaborative.

[00:51:41] Dmitri: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:41] Monica: Because we, we have a lot to gain from that, and, for some reason we just can't get to that space.

[00:51:46] Dmitri: Yeah. So Music Tectonics can be a place to matchmake industry execs with tech founders and operators to have those conversations, even at the development level.

[00:51:57] Monica: Right.

[00:51:57] Dmitri: Even early in the stage so they don't build something out or have an expectation that's not realistic.

[00:52:02] Monica: Yeah. Or bu- they're building something we don't need.

[00:52:04] Dmitri: Hmm.

[00:52:04] Monica: You know? I mean, that happens a lot. Um, you know, because, you know, there's a focus on the DIY community a lot, which I'm not saying there shouldn't be, but that is a very different community from the community that is part of the music industry.

[00:52:19] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:52:20] Monica: And, they have different needs, they have different expectations, and, we're... It's not being treated that way, sort of treated as sort of one, monolithic thing.

[00:52:30] Dmitri: Right. Right. So I'm gonna go back to my question, is it possible for s- us all to get behind something? What could we get behind?

What would it take-

[00:52:39] Monica: I think you can get groups of people behind something.

[00:52:42] Dmitri: Uh-huh.

[00:52:42] Monica: I think you could get, you know, with a focus on, like, the independent world, you could get, you know, the independent labels and the independent publishers to focus on something that was more collaborative. Mm. And I think,

You know, I, you could get marketing people to be collaborating with those groups. I mean, you have to start in the places you know it will work-

[00:53:01] Dmitri: Mm-hmm ...

[00:53:02] Monica: and then branch out. But You know, we're a very, unique group of people.

[00:53:10] Dmitri: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:10] Monica: And there's always a lot of turnover. There's less real music people in the music business now, way less than when I first started.

 and I hope that changes. I hope there's, you know, a return of the music people- Mm ... and not as many, you know, lawyers and tech people running the music business. Um, 'cause I think it's making a difference on the music that's being produced and, and released.

[00:53:33] Dmitri: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I think that I'm gonna keep banging the drum, Monica.

 the rising tide, the grow the TAM, the grow the value, grow the music. I want the cultural side to be as strong as ever. I feel like when I talk to you, you're always representing that cultural side. You're saying like, these are great songs across the ages that will live on forever." They're universal-

[00:53:55] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:53:55] Dmitri: in the sense that there's so many ways in which people can engage with them, and so many emotions that can come from it. I love that you stay connected to that part of it, rather than music as asset, music as a widget, music as- Yeah, I can't ... you know.

[00:54:08] Monica: I'm a musician. That's why I did this whole thing.

[00:54:11] Dmitri: You know?

But I'm gonna keep beating the drum because I think there's a little bit of a mind shift that we can push collectively, even if we have to do it in subsets at first-

[00:54:22] Monica: Mm-hmm

[00:54:22] Dmitri: ... of thinking about let's look for the win-wins. Let's look for the growth opportunities. Let's... All... I think everyone, even a lot of the tech people that you're talking about, come into the music space because they like music.

They may not be-

[00:54:35] Monica: Right

[00:54:35] Dmitri: ... musicians. They may not understand the creative process always, although some of them are creating the instruments and the plug-ins of the future that are totally transforming what music sounds like and how culture moves. But I think we all come into it for a love of music.

[00:54:48] Monica: Right.

[00:54:48] Dmitri: And I think if we can look at thinking about that vision of let's grow this market. We have the cultural impact. Let's have the financial impact that supports the creative growth of this space as well. So that's what I'm working towards.

[00:55:01] Monica: Yeah. Well then, then you have to start having the conversation about value.

[00:55:05] Dmitri: Mm.

[00:55:05] Monica: What is the value of music to those different things that are being built?

[00:55:10] Dmitri: Right.

[00:55:11] Monica: And it has a value, and it needs protection, and it should be, You know, ev- we should all be respecting each other's copyrights.

[00:55:18] Dmitri: Right.

Right. It has to be less about arbitrage of the value and more about growing the pie for everybody.

Like, hey, if you're gonna bring value as a tech company, as a tech platform, how are you gonna share that with the, the people who created the music, recorded the music, performed the music, et cetera? And instead say, "This is gonna be one plus one equals five," instead of, "This is gonna be one plus one equals three, but we're gonna keep the two."

You know? Yeah.

[00:55:45] Monica: I mean, it has to be an opportunity for everybody.

[00:55:48] Dmitri: Yeah. Yeah. Monica, this has been a blast. I think we've really addressed way more than what happens after streaming by really looking at the nuance of it. I always appreciate your perspective. This was so much fun. I can't wait to see you, and keep having these conversations.

[00:56:02] Monica: Thanks. I look forward to them too.

Let us know what you think! Find us on LinkedIn, and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.