Strings Attached: The Impact of Tariffs on Music and Culture with Cullen Hendrix
- Eric Doades
- 3 days ago
- 23 min read
Today we talk with Cullen Hendrix, Senior Fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, about the impact of tariffs on musical instruments. A trained political scientist as well as having a background as a touring musician, Hendrix has a really distinctive lens in which to view the tariff news. We talk about how tariffs on Chinese imports could stifle the next generation of musicians, the potential consequences for the used instrument market, and the effects on American culture as a whole.
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Episode Transcript
Machine transcribed
Dmitri: [00:00:00] Cullen Hendrix is a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute for International Economics and a former professor of international relations. He studies how markets natural resources and climate shape conflict has held research posts in Norway and Japan, advise the National Intelligence Council and World Bank and published widely across political science.
Economics and environmental studies. Interesting background for the Music Tectonics podcast, but in April, Cullen wrote a piece titled New Tariffs on China Could Silence the Next Generation of Musicians On The Peterson Institute website. He anticipated the impact of tariffs on musical instruments. And an earlier article in December called The Way the Music Died, tariffs Could Hit Musical Instrument Imports.
So I wanted to bring Cullen onto the podcast to talk about some of the data he covers in the articles and the implications that. Go even beyond that data. I'm excited to have you here. Welcome to Music Tectonics Cullen.
Cullen: Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
Dmitri: Yeah, this should be really interesting, not a topic that we've talked about at all on the [00:01:00] podcast ever before, but super timely. What led you to writing these pieces about the impact on tariffs, on musical instruments and the role of music in America?
Cullen: thank you for reading that bio, it makes me sound like a, fairly with it kind of person, pretty buttoned down, sort of an academic pointy-headed type individual. And I suppose I am those things. but I came to this world, after a, A career, if you wanna call it that, as a touring and recording musician,
Dmitri: Oh,
Cullen: as a Dr as a drummer, right?
So this is something that's in my blood. It's, my, my father, collects, uh, you know, pre-war Martins. My brother's a guitar tech. He's out with Crowded house right now. so I've played in bands essentially. Since I was 15 or 16 years old. It's very important to me, and I think that, setting aside kind of my own point of departure on this, I think it's important for those of us who are involved in writing about trade or writing about tariffs or the global economy to talk about, products, in this case, musical instruments that people really care about.
We [00:02:00] toss out, you know, these huge numbers, hundreds of millions or hundreds of billions in, in, in lost, trade due to tariffs. I was told that you never really talk about price until you've established value. And I think that it, I'm, I suspect that many of your listeners, have a special relationship with an instrument in their collection.
that has been something that is really meaningful to them. And so this was a way of Mixing kind of my love of music and being a musician with also thinking about,this is a window for thinking about the role of the United States and the broader global economy these days.
Dmitri: how does this piece fit in with the work you normally do? I get the music connection now. That's super cool to hear, but I'm curious, like how do you weave that together with, how did you get them to let you publish this piece?
Cullen: Oh man, if I could bottle the secret sauce, for that, I would, uh, sell it. Because it, it really is great fun to be able to talk about these kinds of things, you know, and get references to, slash or fallout boy into a Peterson, institute web post.
it is fun, but I think that the way that I got them to get on board, so to speak, was really what I was just saying, which [00:03:00] is the idea that. The global economy is obviously vast. It's incredibly complicated. It's very difficult for people to get their arms around. but if you can talk about.
A product that they understand or a sector that they think that they understand,and use that as a window to, to kind of help them better understand the broad policy scope of say, the second Trump administration and the re-embrace of tariffs as a tool for revenue generation or industrial policy.
You know, this, this gives them a, a point of departure that they might not have otherwise. And I think that, Sentiment in the United States has become increasingly skeptical of globalization, increasingly skeptical of trade in many respects. And so to a certain extent, those of us at the Peterson Institute, who'd been tinkering around at the margins of the architecture of the global economy are back in the business of making the basic case for why, there are gains from trade and there are benefits to specialization,that accrue not just to.
Wealthy economies like [00:04:00] the United States, but also accrue to places like China, Indonesia, and so on and so forth.
Dmitri: Oh, that context is really helpful. I appreciate you kind of melding that, that viewpoint into it. So we're recording this in mid late June. What's the status of the tariffs that, America's president was enacting back in April?
Cullen: Okay,broad spectrum. We have come back from, I think what many economists would say was a cliff, that was, that came in the form of the April 2nd Liberation Day tariffs. which were. astounding in their scope. and were really unprecedented, at least in the post-war history of the United States in terms of how high the levels were, so you'd see a 32% tariff on Indonesia, up to 60% tariffs on some very small, island countries, right?
That, that export fewer than $10,000 of goods to the United States in a given year. But we also saw a ratcheting up of, of tariffs on China, and those got up to the point where they were around 140% for a while. in the intervening time [00:05:00] we've come back, as I said, from that cliff at the moment, tariffs on Chinese goods coming into the United States are at about 50%, a little bit north of 50% and cover a hundred percent of the goods coming from China.
and then in addition to that, instead of, uh, this broad, Suite of kind of country specific tariffs for different trading partners. We are now in a situation where we have a 10% kind of flat tariff with some goods, none of which are particularly important for, the music industry necessarily, being exempted there.
Although I can think of a few examples where that might not be the case, we still are interested in germanium, that there's a lot of talk about that in Washington, and not just because it gets used in fuzz pedals.
Dmitri: Well, you've talked about China a couple times already. How much of the musical instrument market in America is produced in China? And what other countries manufacture musical instruments sold in America?
Cullen: Okay, so in 2024, over a third of all musical instrument imports in the United States came from China. [00:06:00] It's about 35.7% to be exact. if you do a little bit of back of the envelope calculation that will. Translate to representing, somewhere between 15 to maybe 20% of the total retail market.
So not just thinking about imports, but also thinking about the stuff that we make and sell here in the United States. So it's a, it's actually a very significant kind of footprint. And I know a little bit later we'll get into kind of the specific areas where that trade is really important. but yeah, China is, is definitely the elephant in the room.
But we also have significant import shares coming from places like Indonesia, with in another kind of east, southeast Asian, in this case, emerging,manufacturing heavy kind of economy. we have significant imports coming from. Countries like Taiwan and Japan, and Mexico, and Canada for that matter, as part of the U-S-M-C-A.
So it really is, is pretty diverse, and it is a reflection of the fact that the musical instrument trade is highly [00:07:00] globalized. and so it's not just that. The US consumers are playing, say, Chinese assembled guitars or violins. It's also the case that, high-end collectors in China are buying Fender custom shop guitars that are made here in the United States and can cost, upwards of $10,000.
Dmitri: I would imagine that also there's American companies who are manufacturing elsewhere or they're getting parts that are manufactured elsewhere, maybe from 10 different countries and possibly assembling here. That also has an impact.
Cullen: Oh, this is for sure. So you will look at,I don't know how much naming of names you'd like to get into on this podcast, but I will just say that in one of the pieces I wrote recently, I was talking about an American made amplifier by a major longstanding, historic amplifier maker.
Dmitri: Hey, you can, you can say it, you wrote it in the article. You can say it on the podcast.
Cullen: Okay. So I was talking about a very specific model of a fender twin. and this is a fender twin, that is loaded with, speakers. These are Jensen speakers, right, which I believe used to be made in the United [00:08:00] States. These are actually now owned by an Italian that the name brand Jensen is owned by an Italian company that is.
Producing its speakers in Italy, but using components that are sourced from China in the form of the neodymium magnets that they're putting into the speakers. and it, when you go to buy it at a guitar center or wherever you go to purchase musical instruments, that is marketed as a Made in America kind of product.
So it's not just. the things that you see,when you're looking at that, that stamp, that doesn't mean that 100% of the content is there. So a lot of content coming from China, potentially Indonesia, other countries, is coming in at other points in the supply chain, before you get to the finished product that's sitting on the showroom floor.
Dmitri: This is interesting. I mean, there's something to be said for the specificity when you're talking about an exact model, the exact, components of a model where they're made, how it's being marketed. I think it gives people like a more clear sense of the impact of this entire conversation that, that you wrote up in the articles.
What specific instrument types are we talking about [00:09:00] and, are some of them more likely to be from China, for example?
Cullen: I think I've alluded to this, I'm not sure if I've come out and said it yet. Right. So that one of the cool things about the musical instrument market, from my perspective anyways, it sort of is a textbook example of how it was that we thought globalization was going to work, that you would have the offshoring of kind of lower value added manufacturing to other countries.
This is from the perspective of the United States. I'm just bracketing that when I say. Other countries from the perspective of the United States, that the, that manufacturing of kind of the lower value added. Some, some of the parts, some of the,lower end entry level instruments would go offshore and that would free up, the American Luthers to focus on making kind of the high end stuff, that commands a much higher market premium.
And that's actually what's happened. And so. Getting into kind of the product specifics. with respect to China, China is the overwhelming source of the vast majority of US Imports of [00:10:00] beginner or student level, both woodwind, but then, brass wind, and then also stringed instruments. So if you have a little kid who is, uh, working their way through a, you know, twinkle, twinkle little star, chances are they are doing that on a Chinese made violin.
and they're doing that not because the United States can't make a children's violin or there aren't great manufacturers and luthier in Europe who make these violins. The reason you're not, that child's probably not using them is that those violins can cost, five to 10 to $20,000, because they're made by master craftsmen, and so having them tailor what they're.
Putting out there to the beginner market really wouldn't make a lot of sense. And so the areas where the United States kind of musical instrument market is highly exposed to Chinese imports are in these kind of starter stringed instruments, starter brass instruments. So think about your tuba, your saxophones, your trumpets, et cetera.
and then, manufacturers in China, but also Indonesia as well. are [00:11:00] pretty big in terms of the starter kind of rock band instruments, so acoustic and electric guitars, basses,lower end, more entry level kind of drum sets and the like. Uh, so those are just a few examples.
Dmitri: One of the things that struck me in your, in your piece, was about the impact on music education, on, um, on culture. And I want, I want to come back to that, but before we do, you already mentioned, the neodymium magnets. Some of these parts that are getting used into the American made or European made.
devices and, and instruments. And you have this background in researching trade and natural resources. I'm curious, could you talk a little bit more about how Tars will affect the use of parts for American musical instrument companies?
Cullen: I'll kind of bracket this into sort of three places and I'll start with what you just mentioned, right? So it is the case that there is this, there's this group of. Subset of what are term critical minerals, like rare earth elements, and also just elements on the periodic table that you don't hear about [00:12:00] very often.
and you know, if you're not a musician or you're not involved in, producing, high-end field deployable radar arrays for the Marines, you probably don't spend a lot of time thinking about germanium. For instance, or if you're not in the semiconductor industry. but these kinds of materials, are a subset of type of materials for which the United States is almost completely dependent on China for processing and then for export.
And so those exports have actually kind of been weaponized in the context of the US China trade war that we still find ourself in the midst of. So that's kind of one kind of area of vulnerability for those kind of supply chains. and that would go. As well for the neo demia magnets and whatnot.
a second area of vulnerability, has to do with exotic hardwood. So if you see somebody playing a nice guitar or a nice violin, you're probably looking at some rosewood, maybe Brazilian or Indian. You're probably looking, potentially if it's a, if it's a collector's item, you might be looking at some teak.
You might be seeing some ebony on the fretboard. All of the. Woods that I'm [00:13:00] describing are woods for which there's no domestic kind of compe competition in the United States because we don't have the climate that facilitates growing those kinds of exotic hardwoods. That's part of the reason why we call them exotic hardwoods.
And so that's another reason, right? that's another angle by which tariffs on those goods are going to increase costs along the supply chain for people who are making in instruments without any hope of actually supporting any kind of domestic US industry. you can put a tariff as high as you want on Rosewood.
There's not going to be a large rosewood industry in the United States because we don't have the climate for it. and then the third area is probably the most kind of broad spectrum because we use steel in aluminum in almost everything. And in addition to the tariffs we've talked about earlier, there are also section 2 32 tariffs, which are, implemented, uh, to safeguard US national security, or at least that's the rationale that's been stated.
That are increasing the cost of those kind of basic inputs. So basically anytime you [00:14:00] see a steel, widget or what have you, or a tuning, rod on,one of my drum sets, right? You're looking at something, that, that is made from a material, the basic cost of which has been increased due to these types of section 2 32 tariffs.
So those are, those are three examples I could probably go on. But,I think it, maybe I'll stop there for the
Dmitri: I don't know. How to ask this necessarily, but does the Peterson Institute have a perspective on the impact of kind of these types of terrorists around the thought of the exchange of value on a global perspective, but how it has an impact on an American based company? I'm curious, like how should we be thinking about.
what the right position is for the value of America's economy. Uh, you know, the government is trying to, or the president is trying to make a balance around trade on all this. But then because of this interdependence of global sourcing of materials and bidirectional sales of ingredients of products and so [00:15:00] forth, it seems like there's like unintended consequences.
Maybe I'm just curious to hear a little bit more about. You know what that means for American musical instrument companies.
Cullen: Yeah, sure. so we do not have a stock company line. I would say, broadly speaking, our orientation is pro free trade, pro financial integration. but all of us have individual kind of perspectives on these kinds of issues. Now, the perspective that I bring to the table with respect to this is that.
If you think about, for a moment, let's just say the largest kind of consumer market for musical instruments is probably electric guitar. Okay? Now, if you ask anybody on the street, I. who are the famous makers of electric guitars? You're probably going to hear Fender and Gibson, and it maybe not in that order, but, these are iconic brands associated with some of the world's most famous musicians and have been since the 1960s.
at least, going back even further, in the case of, you know, the Les Paul, which is named for Les Paul. From their perspective, [00:16:00] the setup that we had prior to the imposition of these broad spectrum kind of tariffs was probably a pretty good one because it not only allowed them to meet consumer needs at various different price points in house, right?
They can sell a $250 Squire Stratocaster to a kid who's mowing lawns. They can sell a guitar that costs 10 times that to, you know, his weekend warrior father, who still likes to hang out with the boys and, play some riffs and whatnot. So globalization is the only way in which that is possible by offshoring, say, the production of that Squire instrument and then allowing Ruthers here in the United States and, you know, in shop and Corona to focus on these higher kind of value added instruments.
And so from their perspective, it's not just the fact that, that this is likely to increase. Costs in their supply chain for basic materials, which we've already talked about, and limit market access. it is also the case that it's exposing the United States to retaliation, right? So if the United States is going to [00:17:00] impose tariffs on China, China can impose tariffs on the United States.
Now, what does that translate into? I suspect for high-end musical instrument makers, it translates into, fewer sales in those kind of markets. And even if there aren't reciprocal or kind of retaliatory tariffs put in place,these name brands are associated, I think with the United States of America in ways that, that historically have been very positive.
It's been this huge source of kind of soft power and cultural capital that the United States has exported to the world. We're messing with that now in ways that may cause consumers across Europe who would want to play an American made symbol or American made guitar,a Ludwig or Gretch drum set that's made, uh, in the Carolinas, right?
They may be, encouraged to, shop domestically or, or buy an alternative product because they don't like what buying an American product would seem to say about their choices as a consumer in the current context.
Dmitri: Yeah, I love that you are both a player that can name drop these specific models and [00:18:00] brands even telling us where they're made and and so forth, and translate some of the kind of the larger, economic impact of this. We've gotta take a quick break, but I wanna broaden out and talk more specifically how this could have an impact on America's musical world.
We'll be right back. Okay, we're back. And before I ask you about the broader context of, the impact on music and culture that you think some of this could have, I'm curious, what would you expect to happen with the used musical instrument market? To me, it's one of the. Product categories in America that is, it's got a special cachet.
it's a huge part of people's experience. Their first instrument is oftentimes a used one. it's the entry level drug to, to playing music. what do you think will happen in that market?
Cullen: Yeah. I was hoping that we'd get a chance to talk about this. I have a buddy here in Denver, Colorado, which is where I'm based who, uh, whose real job is in commercial real estate, but has a sideline,in basically,flipping. Used drum sets. So getting an old [00:19:00] drum set that was hiding out in someone's garage, fixing it up, getting it nice and polished, putting new heads on it, having it play ready, and then selling it, at a modest profit.
And I know for a fact that as soon as Trump, was elected because he thought this was the direction of travel in terms of, of economic policy, he really started stockpiling,used equipment because he. Could foresee that this was likely to push more consumers into the used market. Now, the used market is a fantastic place to be for a variety of reasons, and not just for getting your hands on kind of like your first drum set.
I'll just speak from the perspective of a drummer. my first drum set was a used pearl export kit. I think that was probably. 75% of American drummers, first drum set. but recently I bought from him a made in Japan, Tama Star classic set. that sounds beautiful. It was made in the 1990s. I can't recommend it enough.
And it's really fun to go into that secondary market, to, to access kind of the history of, of, of musical [00:20:00] instruments that have been produced because these things can last a very long time. and having said all that right, The effect is going to be pretty much what my buddy was anticipating, which is the fact that it's going to push more consumers on margin into the used market.
and I think, to the extent that it's going to have a cultural impact independent of kind of the market dynamics, I. I do think that necessity is the mother of invention, and I think we could find, American musicians reem, embracing technologies,like solid state amplification and whatnot.
They had kind of been relegated to sort of the dustbin of history. and revisiting these things because they're relatively cheaper in the market and you get a creative person, they figure out, okay. What can I do with this? What can I, what kind of sound can I get out of this?
And so I'm looking forward to seeing how people,approach this with some ingenuity to get around some of the obstacles that have been created. but yeah, this would be a good time, if you're trying to sell musical instruments in a partial equilibrium sense, which is just a way of saying.
There's going to be demand for them. But then the general effects [00:21:00] of all this uncertainty on the macro economy also mean that this might not be a time when a lot of people are putting discretionary, income into, the third guitar or the fourth drum set. people like myself have a disease, and we can't help ourselves.
But, uh, the, the consumer at large probably can.
Dmitri: So in a sense you're saying there's gonna be some economic turbulence that will affect discretionary income that might make people not buy another guitar, but if they are gonna buy another guitar, they're gonna be looking at,they'll be looking at the used instrument market maybe a little more just because of some of the cost increases for new equipment.
Cullen: I think that's the case. And also,while we're on the subject of kind of economic uncertainty, look, I work at a, I work at one of the world's preeminent think tanks that studies the global economy. And on any given day, we are struggling to get our arms around what the picture is in terms of what goods are being tariffed, at what rates, and from what destinations.
And so if it's tricky for people who do that for a living to understand, it's also tricky. [00:22:00] For, John Q Citizen or Joan Q Citizen to figure out. Now the reason I bring this up is because I think one of the other things that we can expect to see is what, economists would euphemistically refer to as anticipatory pricing.
and anticipatory pricing is simply, I. All right. For some reason, say tariffs, customers expect that prices are going to go up, and because they expect prices to go up, the sellers, feel like they can increase their margins, and it won't necessarily be clear to the consumer whether or not that's due to tariffs or whether or not it's due to profit taking.
and so one of the things that, that we're likely to see is an increase in cost, even for instruments that are not being tariffed. according to,the tariff schedule that obtains at any given time. And so it's, it's gonna affect the market in, I think, a couple of different ways. But ultimately, at the end of the day, almost all of them are exerting upward pressure on prices.
Dmitri: Interesting. Yeah. I wanna talk about more broadly around music and the impact. We've hinted at it. You've talked a little bit about how it could impact creativity [00:23:00] like in the used instrument market, but what impact, let's just ask that question more broadly. What impact will these tariffs have on music in America?
You talk about it in the article and I'd love to flesh that out a little bit more.
Cullen: Yeah. I think about in the article I mentioned kind of two, I think American success stories, Winton Marsalis and Yo-Yo Mob. And one of the things that these two virtuosos have in common is the fact that their love of music was incubated in school music programs. I mean, they had access.
Marcellus was a music is a musical family. Yo-Yo Ma had access to private instruction, but this was one of the crucibles in which their love for music was formed. and we've all benefited culturally from the existence of these sublime players. That, the concert at the Kennedy Center could have never happened if Wynton Marcellus hadn't picked up that instrument in the first place.
and at the time he was probably picking it up. It was made in the United States because US production costs were much, much, much lower. By the time somebody my age, I'm in my, mid, late forties, by the time somebody my age would be doing [00:24:00] the same kind of thing, that instrument might have been made in Taiwan, which at the time was more of a developing economy.
The point is, is that these kind of lower costs tend to, promote more access for more diverse people within the US population. and I think that's really important because the United States is this incredible, hothouse sort of environment for, breaking artists, from a variety of different genres, from different backgrounds.
We have wonderfully regional kind of musical scenes that are very distinct. and this has been a really important part of how the United States has told its story to the rest of the world. there's a reason why we would send Duke Ellington and Count Bey abroad. On,at the, at, on the state department's dime, in order to share with people in Europe or share with people in Asia, these kind of in, incredible music that was being made by Americans in, in this case it was jazz, right?
Which this is uniquely American kind of art form, the fewer students who have access to that. So let me just back up and just spell out the logic. [00:25:00] Tariffs mean. Band instruments cost more. Orchestra instruments cost more. I don't know about you, but the public schools where I live don't exactly have money falling outta their pockets.
And so that is going to take an already small budget and stretch it over fewer and fewer instruments, which means fewer kids have them in their hands, which means you don't get these incredible kind of downstream sort of cultural. the, this incredible downstream cultural development that is catalyzed just by the fact that a kid had exposure to that.
And even if they never become a musician, even if they never get beyond, you know, row, row, row your boat, right, they may still develop an appreciation for that as a consumer that will help, for the, essentially just help promote awareness of an appreciation of this art form. and so I think that that's important.
Dmitri: Yeah. Interesting. I'm curious, how do researchers like you measure the down market impact of things like trade on something like music?
Cullen: Oh gosh. cards on the table. I'm actually not trained as an economist. I'm [00:26:00] trained as a political scientist. Um, but you know, having said that, this is really, really difficult because, you know, while I can, I could point you to studies that do a really good job of. Using longitudinal just means observations of data over time to tell you about the effect that an increase in price is going to have on the quantity demanded.
We also know that from common sense, right? what I can't tell you is, when we get into these much more kind of complex stories about how an a certain individual picking up an instrument. Is going to have the downstream effect of catalyzing a billion dollar kind of industry and tour. Right? Uh, think about how different the cultural landscape in the United States to say nothing of the economic landscape of the various places it touched down would be absent Taylor Swift having that first guitar put in her hands, as I think a, an early teen or a tween, which is roughly my daughter's age now.
It's very difficult for economists to wrap our [00:27:00] arms around that. I think honestly, our friends in the humanities,and historians have done a better job of telling those kinds of stories. but it's something I'm gonna be monitoring, especially if,I. Moving into July, we don't get all of the, uh, trade deals that had been hinted at by the Trump administration.
And we find ourself in a situation which those high tariffs are once again reimposed. And if those high tariffs are once again reimposed, we will lose, a generation of musicians and the immense cultural capital and value that come with them.
Dmitri: Yeah, man,that's a big one there. And, uh, hard for any of us Music tectonics listeners to, to. swallow, I guess. Uh, let's, let's wrap it up with if you were able to influence policy, what would you suggest to address these broader implications for music, for culture, and for education in America?
Cullen: I would start by tapping policymakers on the shoulder, and I would say the musical instrument trade accounts for four, one hundredths of 1%. [00:28:00] Of total global trade. Okay, so it is a drop in the bucket. However, the cultural footprint of the industries and creative endeavors that it enables is vast, it's nearly incalculable.
it is. Music is one of the few truly human universals and is a language that we can all speak and appreciate and understand. I would. Tap them on the shoulder and say, given that, why are we interested in, throwing the baby out with the bathwater here in terms of trying to broadly broad spectrum protect US industry or advanced US industry, but at these incredibly high cost to sectors that are not really strategic in any kind of sense.
Uh, I mean the music will go on, right? but. I think what I would probably recommend is that if you're going to use tariffs, if you're gonna accept the premise that tariffs are useful for raising revenue and protecting,manufacturing in the United States, then focus on the sectors that you actually care about where globalization maybe isn't working out particularly well for them.[00:29:00]
Musical instruments are not one of those industries. The globalized kind of music, musical instrument value chains are working out well for consumers in the United States. They're working out well for producers in the United States. They're working out well for consumers in developing countries and producers in developing countries.
So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water,and think that just because a tool can be useful in certain limited IE the tariff, that its broad application, is wise. I think we're using a sledgehammer where we should be using a scalpel.
Dmitri: Cullen Hendrix, that was amazing. Peterson Institute for International Economics. Thank you for doing this research, bringing kind of a focus on this larger,political maneuvering to the musical instrument industry, to the culture of music, and for helping us kind of set a framework in that answer to that last question, to help us think about, well, how could we change things for the better under these circumstances.
It's been great having you on the podcast.
Cullen: Pleasure's been all mine.
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