Music and Fortnite with Mike Gubman

Remember when Michael Bublé was an abominable snowman and chased people with snowballs? Well, maybe you don’t, but a lot of people do. Or what about when NLE Choppa showed up in FPS Ops? In this episode Dmitri talks with Mike Gubman of Chartis about the creative collaborations between musicians and game developers and what sort of opportunities those collabs create.

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Episode Transcript

Machine transcribed

Dmitri: [00:00:00] Mike Gubman is the co-founder of Chartis, the largest platform for Fortnite creators. Think of it like a multi-channel network for video game developers. Instead of musicians looking to grow their career and monetize with branded integrations, Chartis has worked with artists at major labels like Warner and Sony as well as.

Indie labels and artists to show up in Fortnite. Mike has previously held roles at Sony, Gracenote, Pandora, and TikTok. He's also a regular attendee of the Music Tectonics Conference. Mike combines deep expertise in music, gaming and emerging tech activations. Every time we talk, my mind gets blown. Mike Gubman, thanks for being here.

Mike: Thank you so much. Great to be here. Dmitri, big fan of the podcast.

Dmitri: Thank you, and I just learned so much every time we talk, and I thought it would be fun to open that up to the music tectonics community and the podcast listeners. you've got some great expertise. I mean, you've had expertise in all these different moments of emerging tech, which is cool, but now you've really, dive deep into the gaming space.

And so for music industry professionals [00:01:00] who might be new to the gaming space, what should they understand about how gaming communities operate and engage with content?

Mike: Thanks, Dmitri. That's a great question. I think the first thing to understand is that most people around the world, and there are a lot of surveys that show this, even if they don't consider themselves a gamer, I. They're often playing games that's every day that could be on the bus, on their way to work.

That's a way to unwind at home. And that traditional definition of a gamer is someone who really lives and breathes games. That's still true and there's a core audience there. but it's just so much broader and it reaches all ages, demographics all around the world. and so when you're engaging with gamers, now you're really engaging with a mainstream audience.

and that's something that I think a lot of people are still. Coming to understand. And the really important thing there is that people love different types of games. They might be a fan of a certain genre, they might be a fan of a certain platform like Fortnite. but in general, by and large, you're able to reach whoever you're looking to reach across age and demographic through the [00:02:00] games that they love.

Dmitri: Mike, I just pictured a music activation in Wordle.

Mike: Yeah, why not? Right? Like you could absolutely do a takeover and make it about a certain artist. You could make it about a certain genre. there are so many ways to be creative with games, and I think that's one of the most fun things for me is we get to sit every day and think about how does it make sense to bring this artist, this new music campaign into.

Game in a way that feels authentic both to the music and the fan of the music as well as to the fan of the game. And that might be the same person. That might be a different person, but you know, every artist has a message that they're trying to communicate and games are this incredible surface for creativity.

Dmitri: Well, let, let's say we didn't have that whole conversation about the broader definition of everybody in games with gaming. 'cause I think in a sense you're sort of saying, get ready. This is not what you've seen with Roblox or Fortnite is not the only I. Thing that's gonna happen, but it is still a really strong, community right now.

So I guess I would say is there anything else you'd want kind of newcomers to gaming to [00:03:00] understand about those spaces where there is this critical

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're talking about as a category is, is usually called UGC gaming or user-generated content. Specifically in gaming, and people are used to talking about UGC in terms of blogging or podcasting or things like TikTok where anyone can come in and make content.

And what's happened over the last few years is that UGC content, that ability to create your own content. Has happened in gaming the same way it's happened in music and happened in the written word and video. and it's sort of the latest big trend in UGC content is that ability that anyone, whether they're skilled and talented or just a, you know, a hobbyist can come in and make a game, that doesn't mean they're all great.

That doesn't mean they're all fun to play, but it does mean that anyone can do it. And so a larger. Number of people are doing this on a daily basis. There are now hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who are making their own games on a regular basis. Fortnite and Roblox are by far the most popular platforms to do that, although there are certainly lots of others.

and that's really where [00:04:00] I spend most of my time, is working with those game creators and working with the brands and other types of companies and certainly artists as well who want to come in. Engage with the audiences that are around those games. And so what you have is a community of creators, in this case, game creators, a community of musicians and artists who wanna work with those creators.

And then the community of fans, some of whom might make them games themselves also for fun, or, really just love to come in and play all the new types of games that are coming out on a daily basis.

Dmitri: Well, so this is a really a specific category. I mean, it's a growth, it's a growth area. It's. Big, but I guess traditionally people thought in terms of like sound design folks for gaming, how would you possibly work with them or like with a traditional video game, whatever that means, or, or how do you get a radio player in Grand Theft Auto to work or what's on the radio there?

Um, you know, so there's those kinds of things. but you're specifically focused on this user generated Content component. what [00:05:00] appeals to you about that aspect of, say, platforms like Fortnite?

Mike: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think what's interesting for me as someone who's been working in, and around music and entertainment for so long is the democratization of this new content type. And that's really just a fancy way of saying it was really exciting a long time ago to be able to record music at home and then share it with the world. Increasingly over the last few years, people have been able to do the same with video, using YouTube TikTok to the point where we don't even think about it as novel anymore. It's a pretty mature thing. And of course, you're gonna make a TikTok when you have a new song come out. Of course, you're gonna make a YouTube video when you wanna tell the world about something and you can just do it from your phone. And increasingly, we've seen video games, which used to take many years, many hundreds of millions of dollars to develop can now be made in that same way at home. Cheaply by, one person or a small team. and so to me that's that really exciting new moment, which is we're taking content from something that you watch or listen, and now it's something that you can interact with and [00:06:00] play.

Dmitri: That is so cool. I mean, I was thinking like this conversation was gonna be more about just this distribution or marketing opportunity for music specifically, but you're also just, and I know you're a musician as well, you're also making. The comparison to like the experience of working with those creators is similar to your experience of working in music, which is really cool.

So like there's a cultural fit there with this particular type of gaming as

Mike: Yeah, I think so. And I, I think what's cool about it is that there are no. Rules. And if you spend years developing a, a major gaming title, you really have to think strongly about the economy. You have to think about how am I gonna make all this investment worth it? And with this new UGC gaming, there's a freedom and a flexibility.

The same way that you can fire off a bunch of tiktoks. And some of them are funny and silly and some might be serious and you can put every idea that's in your head out to your audience and see what they really react to. You can now do the same with gaming, because the barrier to entry is so much lower than it's ever [00:07:00] been, through these platforms.

They provide a lot of the tooling. They provide templates. There's a whole I. Distribution arm there of players who are ready and waiting to try things out. There's recommendation algorithms that are gonna pick up on what you're putting into your game and suggest that to, to new players. and so with that new infrastructure that's there, you can go and be really creative.

and you can try things, you can hop on new trends as well. And so you can't do that if a game's gonna take you three or seven or 10 years to develop. You have to be really careful about what you're doing. And here there's a freedom to just try things.

Dmitri: That's really interesting. But I guess at some point, if you're thinking about promoting music. And doing these, whether they're partnerships or activations or whatever, you start to think about it in relation to, what else would you're doing for marketing? So I'm curious, in your view, how does promoting a brand or a band through gaming compare to running ads on social media?

and if it's positive, what makes it more effective?

Mike: absolutely. And that, that's a great point of comparison [00:08:00] because I often talk about, making a UGC game or participating in a UGC game is, is more like a TikTok campaign than. Than something like, like we're talking about the traditional AAA game development, which is a multi-year cycle.

And so that idea of. Just getting it out there and doing lots of quick hits, showing up in multiple places. and then I think also, you know, what, what's often called in TikTok or social media, like a collab, Hey, this artist is gonna show up with this brand or with this other creator, and they're gonna combine their audiences in a new and unique way and share audience.

And that sharing of audience is what I think has really, moved the needle for a lot of artists that we work with. Where they're able to take their interesting new content, whether that's a new single, new release, new music video, take that new, something new that they wanna share with the world, and put that in front of a gaming audience.

and the gaming audiences tend to get really excited about that because it's something that's new to them as well. They [00:09:00] are discovering new games, new memes, new trends inside of these games constantly. And there has yet to be a lot of new music that's part of that. and so when we bring music into these games and into these discovery engines, it's something new.

It's something novel, and it's exciting. And so we're getting a lot of excitement from both the music fans and from the gaming fans.

Dmitri: It's wild to hear you talk about comparing this to like an influencer, basically an influencer campaign, right? Or co collabs and things like that. Is there anything in the, say the Fortnite world or any of the UGC gaming stuff in terms of the data or the. Segmentation that's different than just social platforms.

I mean, obviously you get the reverberation on social platforms anyway once people repost their games onto TikTok, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube, whatever else. but I'm curious, is there anything else in the data that is kind of an interesting nuance about partnering with a game creator?

Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think, one thing is that you're getting way more time spent with the audience.

Dmitri: Hmm.

Mike: Um,

so a song that's, you know, [00:10:00] three minutes long and we're starting to see songs get shorter and shorter, but for a song that's two or three minutes long, I. your hope would be that someone would listen to that once and then hope that they listened to it again.

And for a well done game with a long gameplay loop,the average is probably around 30 minutes, although sometimes longer on a daily basis, over and over again. And so if we run a, a one week or or two week campaign, someone's gonna hear that song. Over and over again. And actually the problem isn't, Hey, we exposed you to the song.

It's, Hey, let's make sure they're not getting bored. And let's give them maybe a couple songs to listen to rather than just one over and over again. you brought up a great point on social too, which is, social and UGC gaming reinforce each other really well. I'd never say just do one or the other.

What we're doing when we're our, our most effective is to think about the game again. How is that gonna show up on TikTok? How is that moment going to go viral and build that in from the plan from day one? and so oftentimes we're building, a mote zones, clips, places where the player can go [00:11:00] up and see that artist as an NPC, as a non-player character, see their logo and how is that gonna show up on social.

Build some funny clips that launch on day one across social media. and now with, what's called deep linking or direct link, you can have that social post be really funny, be really exciting and engaging. Someone says, Hey, that's cool. I wanna try that. And within the, the post text, there's a link to actually just go play the game right then and there.

And so you can have a call to action from social, which is certainly, higher in terms of the discoverability all the way into the game directly. And people can go from one platform to another.

Dmitri: so interesting. Thanks for some of that nuance too. Some of that specificity really starts to get your mind going about like what are the possibilities? and I think we'll dig into some more examples later in the conversation, but what are some of the biggest misconceptions that the music industry has about gaming platforms like Fortnite and Roblox?

Mike: I think we're still at a point where streams in game, do not count as paid streams. [00:12:00] And so it depends on your goal as an artist manager, as a talent team, or as an independent artist yourself. You've gotta be realistic as to what you're trying to get out of this gaming integration. So if the goal is more streams on Spotify or Apple Music, there are follow on effects.

We've been able to measure an uplift in streaming. but it's very hard to attribute. And so if, if you're like, Hey, I just gotta get my streams up, you may be wanting to think about other I. Mechanics, if what you're looking to do is reach a really engaged audience, if you're looking to be part of the conversation that's exploding.

In terms of UGC gaming, that's really what we're having the most fun and the most success with our artists who say, like, gamers are my core. And when we think about these core audiences, on Roblox, that is, primarily teens. 13 up to about 18, for Fortnite. That's, 16 or 18 up to about 25 if that's who you're really looking to reach, and reach them in a deep and engaging way and say, Hey, I'm [00:13:00] here and I'm at the forefront of innovation.

Those artists are really finding favor with these gaming audiences.

Dmitri: So, I know you said it was hard to attribute the exact uplift, but can you say a little bit more about Anecdotally, what are we talking about here? Like, how can you give at least some general idea of what could happen as a result of doing one of

Mike: Sure, sure. So there's, you know, epic, games themselves and the makers of Fortnite have released, some studies that shown that their official collaborations, which are different than what we're talking about here,have eight x or higher. and hopefully we'll hear more from those teams as they continue to grow their music partnership team, and experiences.

Those are the things that they've done with Travis Scott, with Metallica. Sabrina Carpenter, et cetera. What we've been able to, measure, and it's, it's pretty difficult for us to measure, but what we've been able to measure,with our methodology, which is, not perfect, it's something like a three to five x increase.

and it's [00:14:00] noticeable, and that's going from a game integration to an uplift in their streaming. usually at the time that we're doing a gaming integration, that artist is, on cycle they're promoting a new album or a tour or single, and so there's other promotion going on at the same time.

So I don't think we can take all of the credit for it. but we are seeing an uplift on the days when that integration into the game goes live. For that two week period. and then a little bit afterwards so they get a little bit of a halo effect. And that's coming from a couple different things. One, the artist is exposing a new audience to their track.

most of these gamers are. they might not be huge music fans. They might listen to music, but they're not necessarily knowing that much about this particular artist. We always try to match the game and the artist, although sometimes, serendipity happens. the other thing would be they may have heard of the artist, but they haven't heard this new track.

And so they're getting exposed over and over again that 30 minutes of daily average playtime we were talking about. [00:15:00] and that's time to really fall in love with a track in the way that people used to hear. Songs promoted on the radio. these audiences are not listening to a MFM radio. They're not really exposed to other types of music.

Discovery for the most part, right? they're playing games, that's what they're doing. And so if you want to be in their ears, you have to get your music into the games that they're playing. and then the next piece would be that social amplification we're talking about. So they're gonna hear it in game over and over again.

They're gonna know that artist is cool with their games and that they have this cultural affinity. And then they're gonna see it on the Fortnite related socials when we build these campaigns. And there's a massive network of. what are called fan page or meme page accounts that just put out content in and around the games over and over again.

And we'll make sure that those tracks and those integrations are featured, on those fan pages. And so when you're in the game, you're gonna see the activation, you're gonna hear the song when you open you social media while you're standing around doom scrolling, you're gonna see that and hear that again.

[00:16:00] And that can have a link into the streaming service as well.

Dmitri: Wow, you've done a great job of expressing kind of the what and the why of, music and gaming, especially UGC gaming. I'm curious to hear about the who and the how, but we have to take a quick break. So when we come back, I'll ask you for some examples of some creative things that you've seen in this space.

We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Mike, I'm really curious, can you share some standout examples of how music is being creatively integrated into gaming experiences right now?

Mike: Sure, I'll just draw a distinction for anyone who's listening and kind of new to the space. you will see what are official collaborations, so that could be the famous Travis Scott concert. Sabrina Carpenter showing up in Fortnite recently. you're starting to see more live events in Roblox and other types of games, and that's the gaming platform.

Striking a deal with a major label artist and they bring this big moment, what we're talking about here, and I think this is what's really exciting for,a [00:17:00] broader swath of the industry is that. The same way that anyone can make a game now, any artist can show up in these games. and so how do you as either an independent artist or maybe an indie label or even a major label with, smaller talent, how do those folks show up in games?

And to me, the important part there is that there's lots of different ways to take part. There's not one, tried and true method. We're still at the early days of this experimentation, and so what we're seeing are sometimes you want to have your tracks show up. Sometimes you want to have the artist with a really striking visual style show up as a character, an NPC, and other times you want to really make the game shift.

What it's talking about or how it's showing up to be more about the artist. We often call that a takeover or an integration. And what's happening there is you're adjusting the game mechanics, you're adjusting the game cosmetics. a recent example, to get back to your question, we worked with the artist, NLE [00:18:00] Choppa, he's a great rapper.

He had a big track out called Gang Baby, and we took a popular game. it's not a very fun name. It's called FPS Ops, but it's a fun sort of first person shooter game. Really popular, and it has different modes and different levels, and so we took just one of those levels and made it an NLE Choppa mode.

At the start of the game, there's a cinematic opening. Everyone sees, oh, Choppa has arrived into the game. That's that moment where he gets to greet everyone who plays the game. And that's a great sort of thank you and, and love moment between the artist and the game. And then from there, fans get to choose which arena they wanna play the game in.

and overwhelmingly, people on their own volition chose to play. That sort of branded NLE Choppa Arena over and over again. And some of that's because it's a fun arena. It's great to play. It's exciting. and some of it is because like we were talking about before. Gaming [00:19:00] fans don't get access to this new music content very often.

We're still at the earliest days of gaming and music coming together in a serious way, and so when you present them with a more exciting and fresh content option, they're gonna choose it. And so our data showed that, you know, I think more than 60% of the time people were choosing to play this NLE Choppa game mode over and over again.

They didn't really get tired of it, even in a way that we thought they would. and it's just because it's something that's more fun than a sort of a standard default experience.

Dmitri: I love that. it's a great example because NLE Choppa actually spoke at the last Music Tectonics conference, so

Mike: And that's a

Dmitri: a nice tie in.

Mike: who's jumping in and embracing technology and innovation and. I think when artists take that chance, and it is a risk for them, right? they have to think carefully about how they show up in new areas. the community's gonna reward them for that.

And what we saw was love, not just in the game, but also on socials. and Ellie, when he posted that, Hey, [00:20:00] I'm in, in this video game, which is really cool for him as well, right? Most of us are never represented as a video game character. his fans went wild. They loved it. And it was actually his best performing posts, I think of the month or the quarter, where him showing up in game and he was doing a lot of other exciting things at the time.

But people are so excited that they're showing up in a game, that they love and that they play every day. another fun example

Dmitri: Yeah, I was gonna ask for a couple more examples. That's

Mike: Yeah. Another one that I love to talk about, this was at the um, la last holiday season. We worked with Warner Brothers. And this is a fun one to show that I think, when you do it right, you can bring in almost any artist into a gaming environment.

and it was the King of Christmas, Michael Bublé. and so you would not expect to see Michael Bublé in Fortnite. and those are two very different audiences, right? younger people, and the King of Christmas, who, you know. Everyone's, grandmother's favorite artist, right? Michael Bublé singing all these Christmas songs.

He had a new Christmas song come out and we worked with the [00:21:00] great team with Warner Brothers and, said, how do we bring this, very traditional artist into this game environment? How do we make it brand safe and friendly? Michael Bublé doesn't want to be associated with a lot of people running around, shooting each other.

and it has to feel Christmas. Which is pretty different than a lot of the gameplay. but we worked with one of the games that we love to work with. They built out a custom snow fight, a snowball fight, and Michael Bublé is actually represented by a giant, like 10 story tall, abominable snowman type creature who's chasing you around the arena.

It's hilarious. And as you get closer to him, the music gets louder. As you go further away, it pulls back. And so there's this dynamic audio experience which really brings you in into the gameplay. and it was really fun. And again, I think you can measure the reaction not only by the, gigantic success, it was in the actual game, but also by how people were reacting on social.

[00:22:00] And Michael Bublé was, posting this on his Instagram, on his Twitter, a giant reaction from his fans. And what was funny was to see that the comments were not just from traditional Michael B Bublé fans. It was also from young people who said, wow, this is crazy. I can't believe, someone like Michael b Bublé is showing up in my favorite game.

Almost like a validation from the mainstream media from a more traditional sort of content format. Saying, Hey, what you guys are doing is cool and it matters, and I'm gonna show up in this new and authentic way, the same way that Choppa showed up and is showing that he can be innovative and exciting and fans really responding to that.

Michael Bublé can do the same thing even though he's coming from a very different place artistically. and on top of that, we saw, just hilarious comments, right? So, you had younger people saying like, wow, I can't believe we got Michael Bublé in Fortnite before GTA six. You had actual grandmothers commenting, saying, wow, I never knew about this, but I'm gonna have to have my kids help me figure out how to play this game.

Right? Because they wanted to, [00:23:00] they love what he's doing, wherever he's doing it, and they want to try it too. and so those things are reflected on social. They're reflected in game, and then we also are starting to see them reflected in streaming numbers as well.

Dmitri: In previous episodes, we've talked about the idea of what it takes to be a transmedia company, and that example that you just gave of going for the grandmas who already, like his Christmas music, already listened to his recordings and say, okay. Get the grandkids listening to it and then have this generational, multi-generational moment where they're actually like teaching grandma to game so she can be chased by a giant abominable.

Michael Bublé.

Mike: And I think what's shifted about that and that's a term that's been around for a long time. epic has used the term metaverse before, right? You're moving between platforms. I think re regardless of what you wanna call it, we now are at a place with technology where we can move seamlessly or fairly seamlessly between these different platforms.

And you don't have to have a separate social strategy and a separate [00:24:00] gaming strategy. You can just have a strategy to reach people, and it, it really has to have those different touch points to make sense, to feel authentic and to reinforce us, because at the end of the day, we're all just on our phones.

We're all just on our computers, and we as as human beings are bouncing from platform to platform without thinking too much about it. And I think the media campaigns and the advertising campaigns that we're a part of should reflect that.

Dmitri: Every time you tell us about an example, it kind of like opens up another door to understand. A little more nuance or a little more shape to this. Could you give us one last example before we move on and talk a little bit about what it takes to do this?

Mike: Sure. Thinking of a, a couple other fun ones. I think for me, one thing that has been really exciting. is using the audio in unique and creative ways. One thing that we're starting to see as a trend, and I think this will also kind of segue into how [00:25:00] artists can dip their toe into this water.

not everybody's ready either from a, experience perspective or resource perspective to jump all the way into, Hey, we're gonna get really involved in games. So what's the right way to think about this from, how can I test this? How can I learn more about it? And one thing that we're seeing is, if you are comfortable having a social media presence.

Put the gaming stuff aside for a second and just think about the massive audience of people that consume gaming content on social media. And when I say social media, I'm really talking about, the short form content format. So Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, and TikTok. And there are massive, aggregated audiences on all of those platforms that follow these fan page accounts.

And so a trend that we're certainly participating in, and I think we're starting to see others as well, is to just work with those accounts and take the gaming clips that everybody's consuming in this, massive way on a daily basis and subtly replace the audio with your track. [00:26:00] Just start there, right?

You're not actually building a gaming integration. You're not being represented as a non-player character. You haven't signed some sort of deal with a gaming company. You're just making sure that your. Audio is being heard by gamers, which are now this massive global force. and that to me is both an easy way to get in.

You don't have to move into a new platform. Those we're just talking about the same Instagram that you're probably already active on, but you're starting to associate your music with gaming.

Dmitri: That's almost a cool way to just test market, whether gamers are interested in your track.

Mike: Absolutely.

Dmitri: if you, and then if you see traction, you can engage from there. That's pretty cool. Alright, let's go back to the successful music activations and gaming. what does it look like behind the scenes from concept to execution?

Just to give a, give us a sense of like, well, what if somebody was gonna dive in more fully? what does it take?

Mike: Sure. It's a great question and I think, there's not a one size fits all for everybody. so obviously there are different. Budget levels, there's [00:27:00] different timing. your average UGC gaming activation, you should probably plan for at least six to eight weeks. two to three months before, you have that.

And we're assuming that you're, the reason that you're doing this is because you're on on cycle, right? You have a new track out, you have a new album out, and you wanna tell the world about it. so two to three months before I'd start planning. And the key there is what are we going to be promoting? So is it an album, is it a single track?

Is it a couple different tracks? depending on how you have your music, licensed by a label, are there multiple publishers? You're gonna have to figure out the syn and licensing. Most of these. Gaming companies, assuming that you're talking about working with the actual developers themselves and not the actual gaming company, but if you're like, I wanna show up in a game that's user generated, those folks know less about licensing than you do, and you might not be an expert either.

And so, you know, [00:28:00] the first thing would be to talk to your team and make sure you understand what you're able to do, what sort of clearances you need. And typically we see people bringing their own, songs fully cleared. Whatever that might mean to you and your label. and so assuming you, you've figured out how to pay for those licenses or you have the rights to do so, that would be step one.

but step two is to say like, how do I wanna show up? So we're talking about do I just show up in social media as sort of a lighter test case, or do I really wanna show up as an artist? And typically what's needed there are some of the visuals. So if you're already working on visuals for a music video or visuals for an album campaign, something like that.

Those visuals can be adapted fairly easily into the 3D environments of the game. so taking those files, getting those from your artist and supplying those to the game developer,they can start to weave those into the existing game. so that would be one is getting your paperwork in order.

Two would be getting your artwork and your asset files in order. and then three [00:29:00] would be starting to think about how do I show up as a partner? the right way to do this is not to come in and, and say, we're gonna change everything. People, game, gamers, fans of the game. They love that game and there is a very detailed sort of science and art behind what's called the gameplay loop.

Or the gameplay mechanics, right? So they, the game similar to music, the game has a genre. The genres have rules. Those rules have been developed. And found as almost like a laws of physics, right? What makes a great tycoon game? What makes a great first person shooter? What are the balanced economy inside of this game?

And any game that's popular and has audience, has worked that out in such a way that not only is the game fun, but it's very playable and people come back day after day and you can't screw that up for people. So I think, the same way that doctors say do no harm, I think artists coming into game should adopt that motto as well. We're gonna be additive, we're gonna make something [00:30:00] interesting that's net new for the game, but we're not going to bulldoze what makes this game fun and replayable. and so having an open dialogue about, here's what I'm trying to communicate. To this audience, here's what I really wanna show. And that might be my new visuals, that might be my new message as an artist.

That might be the sound of the game. but weaving that into the game in a way that's authentic to the players and that will be fun and not, either overbearing or annoying. and that can include things like,how many times is that song gonna be played per day?

Dmitri: I love it. You've got get your books in order, get your contracts in order, then get your assets ready. Get ready to hand over the creative and then. Think about collaboration, think about, this person is a creator. They're not like a work for hire software developer necessarily.

They're, they have their own creativity as well. And so there's this kind of like alignment between the musical creativity and the aesthetic creativity that goes with music and the gaming creativity, the [00:31:00] experience, what's actually going to make people engage with the experience once you line it all together.

that's really helpful. I guess to take it one step further, I'm curious. How would you push artist managers and labels to start thinking different, differently, specifically about audience development, around digital fan engagement when it comes to virtual platforms, gaming platforms, things like that.

How should they be thinking in terms of that side of it?

Mike: It's a great question. I, I don't think there's any one right answer, but what I think is most. Interesting is we are seeing, and I, as I talk to labels, I talk to artist managers all the time. They'll say, oh, that artist, they love playing games. They love this game. That's why they, they've even called you, right?

they really love playing this game. And then there's this like divide between the artistic creativity and what the manager wants to do. And so I think bringing artists into the conversation earlier is really important. How do you wanna show up in this game? You play it all the time. and other times I'll get calls and the artist has no.

Interest in games, but their [00:32:00] manager is pushing them into it, and that can feel really inauthentic. and so I think, finding those points of affinity are most important. if this feels like a logo slap, if this feels like it's forced, players will sense that instantly and will get really turned off.

And, I think that's general advice. That obviously applies to other types of media as well. but I think it's important that. We start to think about games as creative endeavors and not, just purely an engineering exercise.

Dmitri: That's really interesting about what some of those dynamics are of just setting up. I'm curious, are there any other challenges or risks that labels and artists should be aware of when they're entering the gaming space?

Mike: I think the other thing would be comfort around different styles of gameplay. when you are creating a. Non-interactive media. So a song or a music video, or even a TikTok, people can comment in and around it, but they're not actually changing how they interact with the video or the audio, right?

It's always gonna [00:33:00] play the same way, with. Gaming. The player is interacting with things. They're changing their environment, they're doing funny stuff. And so you have to have a level of comfort that people are gonna mess around. People are gonna be silly. And part of that is, is the fun of exploration.

and it's a trade off. When I give up that level of control in how I'm perceived as an artist, I also gain way more time and trust from my audience. And people are gonna spend more time with. What I'm a part of the game in this case, and they're also gonna be more deeply enmeshed in it because they're not just watching it, they're actually engaged with their mind, with their body, and in many cases with their sort of sense of community because people are playing together.

and so when the artists have set up funny zones where they can dance and interact, where they can be an NPC,they're benefiting from that engagement. And they're, they are giving up a sense of control, in exchange for that.

Dmitri: I've seen some videos of some artists or celebrity NPCs that are getting a [00:34:00] little bullied on games. So

Mike: but again, you saw that and if you, if

Dmitri: yeah, it's true. It's artists I might not have saw, seen otherwise, actually.

Mike: that's the trade off. And I think, I think for many artists it's worth it. And, people have these very carefully constructed images and I think in some ways we have to let a little bit of that go to, to benefit from this new world.

Dmitri: Well, this has been a great, intro and dive into music collaboration in the UGC gaming space. Before I let you go, Mike, I'm curious, looking ahead to the next year or so, what trends or innovations in the gaming space are you most excited about?

Mike: Yeah. I think when we think about gaming and music, there's two big areas that I'm really excited about. Number one would be, I think people are finally getting past the sort of virtual concert experience, right? When people start. Started this, it was like, let's get the artist on a virtual stage and try to create something close to.

Real life, we're finally past that. Games can be whatever you imagine them to be, right? They're so creative and, and that other worldliness [00:35:00] and that sense of gameplay rather than sitting there watching a virtual concert, that's really starting to take root in the minds of people who are planning these campaigns, both on the artist side and the gaming side.

so that's number one is new and more innovative types of experiences. and then the other would be, I think as we, as an industry start to figure out what. More standard types of licensing should and can exist, and more flexibility there. We're gonna have more artists feeling more confident that they can put more music into games.

So we're gonna have more experiences and they're gonna be more differentiated. and I think we're gonna see a massive growth. Over the next year or so, especially as, UGC gaming platforms like Roblox and Fortnite continue to rise, and social media has hit this very, huge but strong point of maturity, right?

There are not that many more people getting onto Instagram. it's pretty saturated. but this is a new area of growth. And so I think what I'm starting to see from the majors and the major [00:36:00] indies is that they're now thinking about. Gaming for every campaign or for nearly every campaign. That makes sense.

They're saying, what is our gaming strategy as a part of this? We saw that a few years ago with TikTok where it went from this thing that was very experimental to a critical point of every artist release in every campaign, and I think we're gonna reach that point with gaming in the next year.

Dmitri: Amazing. Mike Gutman with Chartis. This has been super valuable. Thanks so much for, uh, sharing all this insights and, spending some time with us here at Music Tectonics.

Mike: Thank you so much.

Let us know what you think! Tweet @MusicTectonics, find us on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.