Unpacking the Latest in Music and Tech: Spotify, Apple, and AI Fraud
- Eric Doades
- 6 days ago
- 22 min read
On today’s news roundup show Dmitri and Eleanor tackle the week's music tech news. They discuss Spotify's app store changes, Apple Music's new transfer tool, and so many AI music industry developments, including the $10 million AI music fraud case.
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Episode Transcript
Machine transcribed
Dmitri: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Music Tectonics, where we go beneath the surface of music and tech. I'm Dmitri Vietze, I'm the host and also the CEO and Founder of Rock Paper Scissors, the PR and marketing firm that specializes in music innovation. And this week we're gonna do another rock paper scanner episode where we focus entirely on news from the past week.
And I'm really excited today because I get to chat with our amazing marketing director, Eleanor Rust. Hey, Eleanor.
Eleanor: Hey there. It's great to be back behind the mic.
Dmitri: Yes, love to do this. I know you've done some of these with Tristra recently and she's done them with Jade and now we kind of mixing it up and I'm excited because you have such a unique perspective on the landscape.
You know a lot about what's going on in the big capital C culture world of media, tech, music, and so this is gonna be fun. Are you ready to dive in?
Eleanor: I am ready.
Dmitri: I've got some articles I pulled out and I can't wait to just bring 'em up and see what you think about them, Eleanor and our listeners of course too. I'm gonna kick off with an [00:01:00] article, a couple of articles that are kind of about like the music ecosystem and the user experience.
Music. Ally this week had an article called Spotify says App store changes have boosted its subscriptions and we've watched kind of the battles between the Apple. App Store and various other media entities, whether it's gaming companies like Epic Games or Spotify, like how much control does Apple have how these companies, add on in-app purchases and subscriptions and things like that.
Eleanor: Yeah, and how much they can control the walled garden by being in, charge of the platform and the hardware and the operating system.
Dmitri: and I appreciate that music. Ally is calling this out because on the surface it looks like a battle between tech companies, but it really does have an impact on music and the potential for revenue in music. And like you said, like what does it mean to have. Walled gardens inside of walled gardens as well for, the music experience.
And I [00:02:00] think part of the point here is that, with some of the shifts happening on the legal front with how Apple can control these in-app purchases, it's having a positive impact for a major music company like Spotify.
Eleanor: That's right, and I was a little dubious when I read Spotify's statement that, oh, this is great for the user too. But when I dug in a little bit on the ruling, it actually allows. So basically it allows, Spotify to send users from an iOS store app to a payment system outside the iOS ecosystem, but it also allows them to offer discounts because the issue with Apple, the Apple payment system, is that Apple takes a huge cut compared to most other, app stores, for any payment to do with any app.
so by sending people to an. External payment system, Spotify and presumably many other apps can now offer discounts and talk about them to their users, which is, I can see how that really does benefit, the people who've [00:03:00] been paying high prices without knowing it.
Dmitri: and in addition, it's, it, it's been part of Spotify's strategy for a long time to segment audiences by how much they're paying, using the family plans, using the ad plans, et cetera. So it gives them another kind of, arrow in their quiver to continue to grow. So at this moment, when people are talking about.
Streaming is still growing. Even Spotify subscriptions are still growing. They're just growing at a slower rate and over time that means they're, they may, they could plateau in terms of their potential growth of user base. You can't keep growing. There's only a finite number of users on the planet, and at some point you can't subscribe.
Babies, they don't have credit cards yet.
so it gives them another tool. And so it's interesting to see some of this pushback between these technology companies and platforms in giving Spotify that additional opportunity. Now, interestingly, there was an unrelated article in The Verge. Apple Music's new transfer tool simplifies this switching from.
Other streaming services we've seen. Deezer has a really [00:04:00] cool,tool like the transfer tool where you can take all your playlists from one streaming, subscription and move it over to Deezer. Well, now Apple's doing this. They're only doing it in Australia and New Zealand at the time. I'm sure it makes sense when you're a big company to do things slowly, both for technological reasons.
And bandwidth reasons, but also for legal and cont like sort of other considerations when you have that much control in the market. But to me it's a sign that Apple's saying, we also are adding a tool to get more subscribers over to our company. So it's funny the, this, the stories seem totally unrelated, but if you think about music, streaming, plateauing, and how do these companies continue growth or how do they keep trying to grab market share from each other?
It's kind of an interesting development side by side.
Eleanor: yeah, it's another chip in the wall of those walled gardens. I know that, the Spotify users I've talked to have been considering moving to other platforms say, but I love my playlists.
Dmitri: You are right. That's
Eleanor: Yeah, this is not gonna let you to be clear. This is not gonna let you bring [00:05:00] over your day list. It's not gonna let you bring over the, the Spotify curated playlists.
it's mostly the user generated playlist. And I also wanna point out that this is a partnership between Apple Music and Song Shift, an iOS store app that says that can do interoperability with a ton of different streaming services. Even if you're not in Australia, you might be able to play around with Song shift and do this yourself.
Dmitri: Yeah. one other thing I do wanna say before we move on is I've been hearing more people dropping the mention of Apple Music in the industry, as well as among the 20 something set that I have a kid who's in that generation saying Apple Music. Has a higher quality audio than Spotify, which I know they've been touting.
some of the,the dol, the Dolby Atmos, and they're using it with AirPods to hear a higher level quality as well. But to have people saying it on the street and in the industry is kind of interesting. I'm noticing just anecdotally a rise in that conversation that people [00:06:00] tend to like Spotify's interface, but they say, ultimately when I listen to music on Apple, I think it sounds better.
I don't know why is sort of what people are saying. So that's kind of another. Another differentiation, like how do you position this and is all of this part of a plan for Apple to keep growing into Spotify's market?
Eleanor: And as, streaming growth slows down, it's these slivers of differentiation that may make the difference for each of these platforms.
Dmitri: Yeah, well, I'm really glad the entire episode hasn't been dedicated to ai, but it does feel like, I'm just back from music. Biz a couple of weeks ago, and there was a lot of talk about ai. I don't, it didn't feel like necessarily the hype of certain other music industry, trends that disappeared that we're not gonna bring up on this conversation.
but, I. I think people are really interested and not concerned and excited and concerned about all the possible ways in which AI is gonna change things in the music industry. And we spotted a lot of news this week. I'll kick it off, on one of the many [00:07:00] faces of ai, which is a billboard piece that Kristen Robinson wrote titled Martina McBride Speaks out against ai, deep Fakes at Senate Hearing.
Quote, it's just terrifying. And I guess I'll just put out, we don't need to go into great detail about the story. We're constantly seeing new stories about legislative and lobbying and petitioning efforts around how to protect, creative people and IP holders around ai. As well as what happens after the AI music or other media is created.
But basically this is about the act that will create a federal protection against unauthorized deep fakes of one's name, image, likeness, or voice for the first time. and it's got wide support. The Human Artistry campaign said they have 400 artists signed up. In support of the No Fakes Act, including Cardi B, Randy Travis, Mary j Blige, Dave Matthews band, quite a diversity of genres represented there.
And you know, just good to kind of check in on what's emerging on the legislative front
Eleanor: Yeah, absolutely. As there's a lot of [00:08:00] turmoil in general over regulation and legislation on ai, the current administration has been really pushing back against some of the efforts to regulate. AI innovation overall more generally. I think the news this week was primarily from the administration, was mostly about, rolling back protections, connected to AI capable computer chips and where they could be exported to.
and there's been, executive orders about rolling back regulation. Probably connected to the tech industry's contributions, to things like the inauguration,
Dmitri: feel like the, the Federal Administration is just. it's like a game of spitball where you feel like you just have to be ducking all the time. You might get hit in the eye by somebody else's spitball. and the intention there is you not to even know where to aim your focus.
And I think the only protection against that is to just decide what you believe ethically and stick with it and not get, and not assume that anything. That the president of the United [00:09:00] States says is actually going to be what
Eleanor: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dmitri: It could just be, has as much thought as passing gas
Eleanor: Mm-hmm.
Dmitri: of the mouth.
Eleanor: So name, image, and likeness, is gonna be of most concern to the music industry and also to other creators and other adjacent industries like we see NIL being a huge issue in sports tech. being able to monetize your name, image, and likeness and be able to,operate with the real scarcity rather than, to live in a world where.
Whatever you are trying to do with your name, image, and likeness is diluted by ai deep fakes, but there's also a lot of knock on effects with the technology. I've been reading reporting from 4 0 4 media on the way that many different loopholes in many different ai generative apps lead to a lot of non-consensual pornography.
So that's the even darker side of, of deep fakes.
Dmitri: Yeah. I will say also, I'm glad you brought this up, about, this becoming more relevant in music as [00:10:00] NIL has been a big conversation in the sports field for a long time, and maybe it has something to do with the kinds of deals that record labels do with artists versus the kinds of deals that teams and universities do with athletes.
But I think we're seeing more and more. People paying attention to NIL rights in music and entertainment Celebrities, not just because of deep fakes, but also because of the fact that music has been unlocked in other ways. We're no longer just trying to produce a physical piece of, hard hardware that people can play for music.
We're no longer just trying to monetize subscriptions, but there's all these other ways in which you can monetize. Your name, your image, your likeness, even styles. Now, it's not just this, the song itself, but the style that, is gonna continue to be a conversation about, how that gets licensed.
Udio, for example, has the ability to, to use a style to prompt song making as well.
Eleanor: And I'd say about five years ago, the [00:11:00] advice to artists was, lean into live events and touring, lean into merch. And this is, an obvious outshoot of that advice,of, monetize everything you can because streaming is not gonna be your source of revenue.
Dmitri: Right. Yeah. Speaking of Udio, a couple more music ally pieces I wanna shout out. And then we want to get to our big story, I think,that are just more of like different faces of AI and conversations that are happening. And some of them, again, they're not directly, it might not be obvious, but, this one is Udio Launches mobile app using Apple's in app.
Purchases system. We were talking about the Apple ecosystem before, and now we're talking about, Udio being able to sell things inside the Apple App Store. And I guess, a, it's, the ai, the generative AI music creation. Platforms march forward, even while there's these legislative suits that are playing their way through the courts.
We don't know what's gonna happen with the lawsuits,against Udio and Suno that was started by all the [00:12:00] majors. but they're continuing to progress as if everything's gonna work out. The irony to me is here is Apple. F the company that has defined itself as the safe tech company in terms of security and stuff.
They've also played themselves against Spotify as the, streaming platform that pays out more. That's not trying to like nickel and dime the labels. and now if Udio is using the in-app purchase system using, Music data that they did not license Then is Apple getting a cut of, of the thing that Udio should have probably gotten licenses for?
Eleanor: Yeah, it does sound like having it both ways, and I think that's a sign of the super complicated e ecosystem around all of this, right? Is that it's so layered. there's, nothing stands by itself.
Dmitri: Yeah, exactly. Okay. One more little, lens, which we can talk about ai. And this one is going even in broader 'cause it's not necessarily music related, although it is kind of Apple related. I.
Eleanor: go to music so fast. We're
Dmitri: [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wanna hear about that. So musically, Stuart Dredge, really, he's always working hard, but this week we grabbed a lot from him.
OpenAI has hardware ambitions and a $6.5 billion deal to ignite them. So the story here is that OpenAI is buying, this company called IO for $6.5 billion. IO is headed by, the, The original boss of design at Apple, Joni, ive the longtime design chief at Apple. And so the whole idea here is he's already brought together these hardware and software engineers, technologists, physicists, scientists, researchers on product development and manufacturing.
Why are these two guys teaming up? Why are these two companies, why are they spending $6 billion on this?
Eleanor: The word I was wondering that too and what is this device? Why do we need a device when we already have. So many devices and I heard the, I, I read the word companion. Now, if this is making you, giving you like flashbacks to some [00:14:00] big name, big money launches, that didn't really go very far.
Um, yeah, that's, that's what I'm thinking too. It made me think of Humane whose ai pin just completely fizzled and Rabbit who's, I think they had a couple generations of little, devices. I think teenage engineering was in on the design of those. Other big design names. and although I think the one of the rabbit devices is still around when it finally launched last year, like the YouTube reviewer, mark Wis Brownley said that it was basically useless. Jonie, I've actually did comment on a humane and rabbit as, mistakes and said that there just haven't been enough new ideas in hardware and software.
Dmitri: hmm.
Eleanor: So.
Dmitri: Yeah.
Eleanor: those new ideas are.
Dmitri: Yeah. here's my take on it. And I think, it'll be interesting to see because look. Smart watches are a thing. Now. They did not surpass phones yet. VR headsets app and Apple Vision Pro did not surpass [00:15:00] smartphones. Smart glasses haven't either, but the story's not over, right?
So all of these things are still iterating and I don't know, you know the smart as my 16-year-old kid told me last night at dinner. All the hardware technology, advancements are usually an evolution of something that you already have.
Eleanor: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Dmitri: has the word phone in it for a reason, right?
Even though some people say the phone is the app that I use on my. iPhone to call people rather than saying, I call people on the phone. You know, it's an app within this. just the, the point was just like there's usually consumer behavior or human behavior that you have to account for.
People aren't used to having an extra little something, so, but the question I ask is open AI looking to replace the smartphone because if the interface becomes more AI related and not. screen based stuff, necessarily, maybe it's looks at your face, maybe it's camera based, maybe it's mic, mic based, who knows?
but the other issue is that sense of feeling like. [00:16:00] Your phone is like a tool that you use outside of you. I think what if the, it feels like it's more like something in your head. It feels like an extension of your brain. It starts to, it could be really interesting if they pull something off the, lemme say one more thing, Eleanor.
'cause I, I do wanna hear what you have to say about this, which is part of the challenge with AI is it's out there on the web, it's out there in this open ocean. Taking other people's ideas and then pushing things back in. You don't know what's going to get served up to other people. Everyone's trying to create their own private language models so that they can do business with AI without having to reveal proprietary information, et cetera.
But if you have a physical device with you, you might have a little more trust and a little more faith that now that they've scraped the entire world and created all this intelligence that's right there. Let's not give any of it back. let's hold it privately with this physical device.
Eleanor: Yeah, which in some ways takes us back to what we're, where we started with the Apple's walled [00:17:00] garden that, controlling the platform and the hardware and the operating system gives you a lot more control than if you were just, owning an app. that seems to be where open AI may be going.
but also that, that has a huge disruptive potential. For all of the ways in which. The web is monetized for so many makers, whether that's news reporters, media outlets, if like already, I think there's some large proportion, maybe 60% of searches, for example, that um, don't lead to a click.
When it is the click and the page view that allows a media outlet just for example, to be able to. Pay their writers.
Dmitri: Yeah.
Eleanor: So like that tiny step, like Yeah, I know that doesn't seem like it's connected to the hardware piece that OpenAI is dreaming of, but it is right, is that if, once we've scraped the whole world and are holding it in whatever [00:18:00] format OpenAI is envisioning.
Who's making the next media? Who's making the next input? Who's doing the thinking? Um, the writing, the creating that carries us forward and populates that device.
Dmitri: I had be so curious if in the minds of, Sam Altman is this idea that. We don't wanna be an app in the app store. We don't want to be a platform on the web that people can build on top of. We want to be the hardware because then we own the platform and the app store. And you're right, they're leapfrogging Google's ability to monetize, media's ability to monetize.
app store, other app stores, the, you know, it's like,it's trying to create an entire new basis for how commerce will happen with media. Because AI is the future of
Eleanor: I am getting sci-fi visions. I mean, I know I, I've been really dubious about things like, Neuralink, implanting chips in your brain. But yeah, maybe this hardware is how we get to some of those sci-fi [00:19:00] ai assistance that I read. like in, for example, our,Tris trista's, right novels that include AI about that brain interface.
And it's really fascinating to think about. Maybe we're closer than we think.
Dmitri: I have one big story I think we should talk about, but first let's take a quick break. Alright, we're back. Eleanor, this is so much fun. I'm so glad that you and I are getting the chance to scan the news together. And there's one more article that I want to bring up,to hit on this episode. And I think of it's, is this like the Fyre Festival of Streaming?
I'm, I'm not
Eleanor: Well, it's the first fire festival of streaming. I think it's the fir. It has to do with the first indictment, federal indictment on AI music streaming fraud.
Dmitri: Yeah, so this is from Kate Nibs, a writer at Wired Magazine, a billion streams. And no fans inside a $10 million AI music fraud case. the subtitle, a chart topping jazz album, loads of Spotify and Apple Music plays just one problem. The [00:20:00] success might not be real, and we've already heard this story, in some respects, but we got a kind of a new version of it, right?
Or a more in depth version
Eleanor: Yeah, if you've been reading the Music Tech Trades, you probably heard about this when the indictment actually went down in September. Ethan Millman, who was then at Rolling Stone did some really great investigation on that. Also, Kristen Robinson wrote a couple of different pieces really digging into the indictment and what was said and not said, there about how this.
Scam went down. What I love about this wired piece is it gives us a lot more storytelling about the past of the accused man, Michael Smith.
Dmitri: Yeah. Yeah. And basically what happens here is it a story of AI or is it a story of fraud? That's the question. and it's both. And you're right, the storytelling side of it's pretty crazy. This guy ran successful medical clinics and, uh, it's sort of summarizes that he's already.
Done well for in [00:21:00] business, but he wants to figure out how to be famous. And so this is the, I, that's why I think of it like the Fyre Festival. it's totally like a aspirational entrepreneurial, I'll do anything kind of thing. And it ends up talking a little bit about a fraud related case related to the medical clinics as well.
it, it talks about. yeah, these, this streaming bought fraud piece, but as you pointed out, like some of that was reported already in, in other trades as well.
Eleanor: What we get here in part is, is a story of a human collaborator who, helped work on that jazz album. They really felt like they had, they were really cooking on this jazz album, way back in, I think 2017. and that it, amazingly after. after very little attention from the music industry suddenly shot to the top of the charts very briefly, and the collaborator, who was really suspicious about how all this went down, started digging into his, to the man who was later accused.
and. Said he was trying to blow the whistle over and over again to whoever he could try to make. Listen that this guy [00:22:00] was doing something really shady years before this streaming fraud case that's now in courts, happened. So he's been, yeah, he's been shady for a long time. And,
one of the things that, Ethan Millman and Kristen Robinson reported is that.
The scam seems to have been built out of vulnerabilities, in lots of systems. He developed, bot farms through buying lots of email addresses, paying overseas contractors to set up accounts using a service that created debit card numbers for corporations so that you could get a debit card number for every single employee in your enormous corporation so that each of those accounts could have a separate debit card.
He used family plans on the streaming services to try and save a little bit of overhead money on setting up these bot farms. But one thing I found really interesting in that past reporting is that it sounds like he initially set [00:23:00] up this bot farm and tried to sell those streams to human artists. It was only when that scheme failed that he took that bot farm.
And brought on AI music generated music to create the streams that the bots would stream. So you get this bot on bot feedback loop in order to just spin money out of the streaming services.
Dmitri: Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, you can. By AI as customers. It's crazy. that's where the fraudulent element of the music streaming world is scary and tricky here because you're, he's actually paying for subscriptions, but then he's, uh, you know, racking up, streams with fake customers, you could say.
But the customers, you can't have the. AI can't pay the money. Right? But it's tricking Spotify into paying the money in a way, or other streaming services. Actually, Spotify said specifically that they, of the $10 million that,this guy collected on these [00:24:00] fraudulent, streams, they only paid out 60,000.
They were proud of them. So somebody paid out the other,
Eleanor: Right. Somebody, it sounds like. Yeah. I think the indictment included, details from like text messages and emails saying that he wanted to spread it around to as many streaming services as possible, and the indictment says in order to avoid detection.
Dmitri: Yeah, interestingly, they shout out the mechanical licensing collective as the entity that spotted this first and halted the payments, which is interesting. people have wondered about this extra layer of complexity of paying out rights holders, but seems like it did its job in that case.
Eleanor: Yeah. And the numbers are enough to make any artist really mad because this guy made over a million dollars per year on these AI streamings or, brought in over a million dollars every year on streaming. of course, you know, we just talked about overhead. and if you think about it, apparently like reaction from artists.
has been mixed because they're mad at Spotify too, that they can't make money. But if you think [00:25:00] about it, that guy was paying in, enough to have, streaming accounts for all of his bots. but he was. He was drawing out way more than he put in, which meant that the people he was stealing from were in a sense like the other users and the artists, right?
The royalty pool depends on what people pay. Spotify and other, and the other streaming services. That's what makes the royalty pool that pays out to artists. And if he's taking more than his, than the pie.
Dmitri: Yeah.
Eleanor: then he's stealing from, he's stealing from the artists who are not making enough money on Spotify.
Dmitri: Yeah, so just here's a quote that is kind of the, the piece that I want to get into before we wrap up. Technically, it's not illegal to make a bonkers amount of AI generated music and put it on a streaming service. I. Tacky, yes. Disrespectful to the art form probably, but not necessarily against the law.
In fact, it's pretty common. And so we queued this up with a [00:26:00] lot of different faces of what's going on with ai and then we said, is this an AI story or if this is a fraud story? It's kind of both. I think the point here is that. AI has enabled the ability to release a large amount of music. So somebody like this, Michael Smith, has the opportunity to upload a lot of tracks all at once, and in theory you could say, well, maybe he's just playing the lottery.
Maybe one of them hits and becomes a hit, and then as a result,that's how you could justify. Maybe the legal side, assuming that the AI was ethically trained. And as far as we know, that's true with the tracks here were made with Boomie has something to do with this. And they, according to the article, were certified by fairly trained that checks whether generative AI companies got consent to use their training materials.
it's up until the point of using bots where everything so far sounds ethical and legal. Even if you think it's quote tacky or harmful somehow to just flooding the market of music. That's just not [00:27:00] that great. Although Spotify does say, if it's under a thousand streams, you're not gonna get paid anyways.
So somehow this either happened be, this probably happened before that limitation. Maybe that's part of why that limitation was, was placed on it. But the point is it's not exactly an AI story, but fraud certainly. I think becomes more, viable because of the fast and scalable generation of musical content.
Eleanor: Yeah. It's similar with the deep fake story actually, right? Is that, it's not that you couldn't create deep fakes before ai, but it makes it so much more accessible, so much easier. And, because we have a kind of a chaotic regulatory landscape, there's a lot of sort of. Loopholes and workarounds, so that bad actors can do what they wanna do.
And I think it's important to keep in mind that every time you open the gates, that might allow for more creativity or more people participating in creation. You're also potentially opening the gates to bad actors.[00:28:00]
Dmitri: Yeah, exactly. I will say, like I said, I was at Music Biz a couple weeks ago and pretty much all the AI companies that I heard from met with, talked to there, we're talking about. being focused on the B2B side of the, a AI's use in music, which in a way is to say we don't want to just scrape everything and create all these problems.
We're almost all of them are from the music industry. They're actually trying to keep. Music, creativity as well as tools, maybe even fraud detection, maybe other ways for rights holders to monetize with STEM separation or with, metadata, kind of optimization or, and so forth or asset optimization for the music industry.
It doesn't seem like there's a lot of AI companies hanging out at music. Biz trying to cheat people. I think that a lot of them really got into this because of their passion for music. So it's always important to remember too that, in these moments of disruption and innovation, [00:29:00] there's gonna be good players and bad players on that side too.
Not just the end users, but who's creating these platforms. and we're excited to be a part of the ethical innovation happening in AI and music. not because it's ai, not because it's a buzzword, but because there's some really innovative cool things that can happen around creativity. Um, and workflows and making life easier for artists and labels and the ecosystem,
Eleanor: Yeah, and it's important to have these conversations about fair and ethical inputs. how is training data licensed, um, kosher, et cetera. but then also outputs, right? It's like how can we make sure that the outputs are increasing creativity, helping the music industry, helping artists, just making things work better for people.
I think that's how I'd like to keep things focused, making things work, working for people.
Dmitri: Very music tectonics of you, the Director of Marketing at Rock Paper, Scissors and Music Tectonics. Eleanor Rust, this has been a blast talking with you. let's do it again
Eleanor: Yeah. That was fun.
Dmitri: Yeah. and if you [00:30:00] get those emails from Music Tectonics, the conference, the podcast, that's Eleanor. Eleanor is our, our Voice for music tectonics and for rock paper scissors.
Whenever you see updates on the website or new messages coming through, she's thinking about our music innovation community. So thanks for all of that, Eleanor. Appreciate you so
Eleanor: you're welcome. It's my pleasure. I love, you know, music Tectonics is really the culmination of my year because I spend so much time. Emailing people and updating websites and rallying the troops. and to bring everybody together. I mean, we do it monthly at our online events. Those are great. the podcast, brings people together asynchronously every week.
but it's that conference, uh, in November that, that really brings the people and, and I love that.
Dmitri: Yeah, can't wait to be out there with you on the beach with all the innovators of music. November 4th to sixth in Santa Monica. Alright, Eleanor, let's do this again soon.
Eleanor: Yeah. All right. Bye-bye.
Dmitri: Bye.
Let us know what you think! Tweet @MusicTectonics, find us on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook.
The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.
