Can Gamification Fix Music Discovery?

Remember when the best music recommendation you ever got didn't come from Spotify's algorithm, but from your coworker, your cousin, or a stranger in another country who loves the same obscure band you thought only you knew about?

Eric West is the founder of Music League, a competitive music discovery platform with nearly 200,000 monthly active users across 160 countries. Players compete in themed rounds, submitting songs and voting on each other's picks, which means people actually listen rather than just passing along a link and forgetting about it. The result is something the streaming era largely eroded: real music discovery driven by real people whose opinions you have a reason to care about.

This week on the podcast, Eric talks with our head of new business Jade Prieboy about how a music taste game accidentally became a community-building tool for workplaces and families, what the daily-to-monthly active user ratio reveals about how people actually engage with the platform, and what phase two looks like when artists get direct access to fans who have already been repping them inside the game for months.

If you work in music tech, artist development, or fan engagement, this one reframes how discovery and community can work in the streaming era.

The news

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• Qobuz Is Suddenly One of the Fastest-Growing Streaming Music Platforms. But Why, You Ask?

• Why Spotify (SPOT) Is Up 19.0% After New AI Remix Deal And 2030 Targets

• The Active Listening Era of Music Begins

• Can you own a voice? Taylor Swift’s latest legal move raises big questions for AI and copyright

• Swedish startup Tonada is making AI music for retailers

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Episode Transcript

Machine transcribed

[00:00:00] Jade: All right. Welcome to the Music Tectonics podcast. It is Sunday, March 15th, and we are at South by Southwest. I'm sitting here with Eric West, founder of Music League, and I'm really excited to meet with you today, man. How's everything going? Great to see you again.

[00:00:19] Eric: things are great, Jade. Thanks for, uh, thanks for having me today.

 yeah, you, you wanted me to say what's my take, right? Yeah. Um. South By is a, this is a new era. I, I accidentally came to South by Southwest about 25 years ago and didn't even know what it was going on. But I was at, college in Colorado Springs, friends and I decided on a whim we were gonna go to South Padre, and got in our cars and took off and had a a mutual friend in, ut and.

 he said, well, you gotta, you gotta come through through Austin. There's this festival going on. We're like, ah, it sounds good. Whatever. We were college kids and any festival sounded good at that point. Uh, so we showed up and it was south by that everybody refers to, and then this almost like mythical status that it used to be so much better than it is now.

You know, like everything in life, it's always cooler before, But it, it was pretty mind blowing. Like you just walk in and out of every bar. No, you didn't need a ticket for anything. You just hang out. And, we had a hell of a good time, so I didn't mean to come, but I like the fact that I can say like, I came to one of the first three or four south bys by sheer chance.

 this year, it's quite a bit different. everything's really spread out, but it's still got that, to me anyway, it's still got that vibe about it. It all comes back to the music. And I feel like running a music tech company, and in my case it's kind of a gaming company. It's a bit of a social media company all at the same time, but it's really easy to lose track of what, why it's important, why I like it, why I like what I'm doing, and why I like my company and my product is 'cause of the music.

And you come here for all the business related stuff that, south by, uh, represents. To support the industry and advance the industry and, and talk about new innovations and all that, which is awesome. but then you can go to these shows and that's still genuine and that's still real. That's still a band on stage playing music and playing their hearts out for a lot of people who've never seen them, never heard of them.

 and it's, I love being in that environment, which, you know, I don't do often enough, uh, especially now that I've got a. Got a son, you know, a 9-year-old and running a company, going to shows on a regular basis just doesn't happen anymore. And so though it's exhausting, being on all day, uh, going to sessions and, and then going out at night and kind of trying to relax a little bit, it takes a lot outta you, but man, it's worth it.

 a lot of good music here. So

[00:02:39] Jade: 100% agree. I love South by for those same reasons. got to see Billy Eilish here before she was a well-known name. Got to see, uh, Anderson Paak here before he was really blowing up at like a Chicago showcase. So yeah, really excited to to go to some, some live shows as well.

I also personally, like, you know, the networking with the music folks here and the music tech folks. Like I was just in a big ballroom where there's startups and that were involved in a pitch competition and there's, you know, there's AI and. You know, sports tech companies and all this stuff, but like finding the, the one or two people that are focused in music and really like going deep with them and digging deep with them is, really, you know, just finding your community, finding your people, and connecting with them.

So, yeah, a hundred percent agree on that. will you, will you tell the audience just a little more about like what Music League is?

[00:03:26] Eric: Uh, yeah, of course. I I like to say it's competitive music discovery. Uh, a lot of people will just kind of revert to saying it's fantasy sports for music, but I, I don't think that's entirely accurate.

There are some parallels more on the business side than on the gameplay side. in a nutshell, you, you play with a group of people, doesn't have to be people, you know, you can get onto the, the app and play with strangers if you want. And, and that's an interesting thing that I can get into later that, is a different experience.

Uh. And perhaps I think maybe a better experience for the music industry. but remind me about that. I'll get back to that. But, uh, you play with groups of people. Um, usually it's people, you know, friends, family, coworkers. Those are the three major, groups that play together. every round, is, based on a different theme.

And you submit a song based on that theme, and it can be totally objective. Um, like the best hip hop of 1998. And everybody will think, okay, what's, what hip hop song did I love in 1998? Uh, they'll find that they'll submit that and then after the playlist is submitted, everybody listens to it. again, that's where the music industry, I think is gonna be, very supportive of what I'm doing.

'cause people actually do listen to this. It's not like sending a text and saying, you gotta check out this band. In my case, you actually do check out the band because you wanna win. Uh, and you gotta listen to the music in order to come back and then vote on what song you feel fits the theme. The best. and in the case of, you know, best hip hop in 1998 being a totally objective theme, uh, you're just voting on how much you like the particular song.

 when it's more subjective, uh, then the kind of the voting criteria is. Is whatever you want it to be. And, and that's when things get really fun. 'cause you can have a theme that, uh, you're playing with family. It could be songs that, uh, remind us of, uncle Ken's cabin, or something like that.

And all the cousins are like reminiscing that kicks off this whole conversation on the side about Uncle Ken's cabin. Um, and all the music that you used to listen to there, or, the first song that really made me fall in love with music that really spoke to me. And ultimately, you talk about music amongst people that you know and, and theoretically whose opinion you respect.

 and you debate the, the merits of the song or the songs relation to the theme. And the, point is that you're always talking about music in a way that we used to do before algorithms. you are getting recommendations from friends or family, that you actually. Want to pursue. unlike, uh, an algorithm which is gonna feed you music that admittedly is usually pretty good.

Uh, so they're pretty decent, pretty good at, uh, giving you what you want. but it's so passive and there's no real like aha discovery moment that there is with our platform. yeah, that's the game in a nutshell. there's the, the listening part of it. That I feel is, is important.

 the open leagues. Are the ones where you play with strangers, and this is, and you may have a question about, you know, what surprises me the most and, and about, people's interactions with the game. Uh, with the platform, it's the open leagues where you're playing in a league with strangers who, you know, could be from anywhere around the world.

We have players in 160 different countries. You like some weird band that you think you're the only person who's discovered this band and that you genuinely love them. And if you're in a league with strangers and somebody submits a song from that band. It, it's pretty mind blowing and you're like, oh my God, somebody else loves this band.

And you'll connect with that person and the next iteration of Music League is going to include the ability for you and that that new friend to have a connection and continue that connection on the platform and sort of rally around that band that you and that other person love.

Presumably then talk about other bands that you and that person loves, and so you found a new friend. But what's happened also in that process is the band has essentially started a fan club without doing anything. their fans are there, they're proselytizing for them. They're repping that band by submitting their song in other themes, in other, in other leagues and other open leagues.

 and then kicking off that fan to fan interaction that every artist wants to have happening. And the next iteration, and this is what I, I'm really, personally most excited about, is the ability for that band to then. Ultimately have a presence in Music League as well. And so they can, that group that I know is forming organically around that love of that band or that artist.

 at some point, you know, I can see on the back end that they're submitting these artists songs and that they're having conversations about that artist. at some point then I can say to the artist, Hey, did, did you know that there's. Few hundred people in this space, in, in our platform that, that are, talk about you all the time and that love you and submit your songs and, and represent you.

 here's access to them and that's gonna blow everybody's mind. Like all of a sudden this band that they've been talking about for weeks or months is there virtually interacting with this core group of fans. And I can then help that band grow that base from within Music League by saying, Hey, well there's other people that like.

Band's very similar to you. maybe they can then come into your space and interact with you as well. then the band can play the game and or the artist can play the game and they can play with some of their fans or just, uh, anybody that they, they want to play with. But they would play with themes like songs that inspired our first album.

Or songs that I really loved as a kid that inspired me to become a musician, or our favorites, uh, my favorite song to play in an encore or a song that I always wanted to cover. The kind of stuff that fans really eat up and that you can read in an interview or you can read in a blog post, but chances are you're not going to in Music League when you're watching your favorite artist play a league and they're submitting a a playlist.

You're gonna listen to that playlist and you are going to then go off and on the side, you're gonna talk with other fans about the merits of that song based on the theme. and maybe the, the band themselves will also get involved in that interaction. so that, that's, that's phase two. That's what's coming.

 slowly but surely, we're gonna start building that. Uh, actually we're doing it as I speak. and it's, gonna be, it's gonna be great. The core game will never change. People love the game and I'm not gonna touch that. We'll, we'll. Add some new features that make it easier to play, more fun to play optional stuff that people don't have to do.

That part will never change, but the world around the game is the next phase that I'm really pumped for.

[00:09:45] Jade: Love it. Love it. Yeah. The everything you were mentioning in, phase two sounds really interesting for bands and artists. Um, you're kind of already building a gamified social network that has super fandom built in there.

 Yeah, that's, that's really, really cool. you know, I wanted to ask you, like, before you started building Music League, like what was the thesis that kind of drove you to think that this might be a thread you should continue to pull on or, or start pulling on to begin with?

[00:10:14] Eric: I heard about the game through word of mouth and that's ironically. All we've relied on to this day to grow is people just telling their friends or their family about it. and when I first heard about it, I was like being a music fan myself. I thought this is an incredible concept.

 and it's evolved since, since then. But the, at its core, I thought this is something that a lot of people are gonna want to do. and that costs money to provide that to the world. And so there, at some point there had to be a business to, to wrap around that. As it grew and grew and grew, and that's exactly what's happened.

And so, generating a little bit of revenue through ads, I don't love having ads on the platform, but it's sort of a necessary evil at this point because to have a subscription, we would need to offer something more than what's there currently. And so that, that day is coming. But, the, I think the original thesis was just a personal love, uh, of the idea and an assumption that.

There are probably millions of people like me and, uh, I think that's proving to be the case.

[00:11:11] Jade: how many people are playing music league and competing with friends and competing with strangers? Like at the moment?

[00:11:19] Eric: well on, on the micro level, there's leagues are, I think the sweet spot is 10 to 15 players in a, in a league. On the, the macro level, we're getting pretty close to 190, 195,000, monthly active users. and about 75 to 85 daily, kind of fluctuates. The weekends are slow. but that ratio is really strong.

We're really proud of that. the metric that I think is. Really important in a weird way for us, and this goes back to the, the fantasy sports parallel is the nature of the game is that most people don't play constantly like they'll play in a league. That's, again, the sweet spot in my opinion, and this is a subject to anybody's opinion, is I think six to eight rounds is, is kind of the, the where you want to be.

And that's, I think is most, that's our most typical, round of size as well. When that's over, people won't immediately turn around and play again. I mean, a lot of people do. but for the most part, I think the more important metric for us is probably our quarterly active users. Because people will play for two or three months, they'll take a month or two off, and then they'll come back and they'll play again for two or three months.

Much like fantasy sports, like once the season ends, they're in the wind for three or four months until the season starts again. So, we have a similar, way to measure our, our usage that. To the, to the fantasy sports.

[00:12:35] Jade: That's really cool. That's, um, one, one thing I particularly like about this is that not only can people interact with strangers, and there's everything you mentioned in phase two, which is like bringing in bands and bringing in artists who get involved, is that it's a social platform that's digital and it's, it's online.

But it, it seems to me based on what you said, that these are groups and friends and you work cohorts and, people that are. Going on vacation together or, you know, there's this element of like, let's use this game. let's play Music League. let's compete, let's have fun, let's like, find new music.

And then let's talk about it like in real life as well. Let's play that music. Let's hook it up to the Bluetooth speaker. Let's play the playlist on the Bluetooth speaker one where, you know, in Michigan for the summer or whatever it is. that to me is, something I really like about it, you know, in a, in an age where.

You know, all the big social media platforms are really attempting to take your attention for as long as they can and make addictive content and that that can be isolating. so I really, I really liked that about what you're building. I did have a, some questions about just like, things that surprised you or things that, you know, as you started building it, maybe there was an aha moment where you really felt validated around like.

 this is gonna work. This is, you know, it's like if you compared it to a, a content creator, those I'm gonna post drumming content and then, oh, my first video, my first reel with 10 K views, like, yes, this is, this is happening. I just wondered, like if you could share like a, one of those like kind of aha moments, either, either surprise or, something you felt validated by,

[00:13:59] Eric: yeah.

You sort of touched on it. It's the, it's. The community building that is just inherent to the platform. I think it's easy to be self-referential, uh, when you start anything in life. a business in particular, and the business wrapped around this game, like I really loved it initially because of the music discovery component and because from an egotistical perspective, you know, of course I think I have the best taste in music and all my friends are idiots.

 But if it weren't for my friends, I wouldn't know half the music I do. So they're not total idiots. But I like to say like, you know, this is, we joke that Music League is a way of proving that you have the best taste in music amongst your friends or your family and your coworkers. But what we found out was that people really love it for the social component.

Uh, especially in the case of like a, uh, a workplace league, where, you know, there's the cool music guy that everybody knows, loves music and goes to concerts a lot. He in the cubicle, down the hall, he's starting this music league thing. Well, Sandy from accounting wants to be a part of that too, you know, even though she's probably gonna submit a Taylor Swift song, uh, nearly every round, it's the social part that they're playing together and they're having fun and they're getting to know each other on a level that you can't really around the water cooler.

 so it's asynchronous. you log in, you play when you want, you make comments when you want. and that, uh, I think really lends itself well to community building, um, which was something that we were seeing amongst ourselves when we early stages. but once it was really out in the wild, uh, that that was proven to be the case, on a.

A much larger level than we thought. It's, it's people's main reason for playing, which surprises me. so the music discovery part almost comes by accident, but it certainly does come. and it's music rediscovery. I should also point out that the catalog, opening of the catalogs is something that happens on a regular basis.

 one of my favorite emails that we ever got was from a grandmother. Who is playing in the league with her grandkids and presumably they're her son and or daughter, you know, aunts and uncles too. But her comment was, I just wanted to thank you guys for, for creating this because I finally got my, grandkids to listen to the Beatles.

And I thought, well, that's pretty awesome. And. You know, those kids would've probably heard of the Beatles prior to that, but they might not have bothered listening. And this makes them listen and makes them love it. and hopefully in some ways, how can't you love the Beatles. But, then the kicker on that note was, oh, and by the way, they have me listening to Skrillex.

I was like, that's mind blowing. And, uh, so that's this omni generational, uh, component to the, to the stuff is, is what I think is also really cool. So,

[00:16:35] Jade: totally. I have another question for you about the future of music and gaming, and I'll maybe just tell you maybe where I, what I think about it. And I'd love to get your take.

It's basically, you know, where do you think the future of music and gaming is headed? My answer is, I don't know. I continue to kind of be surprised about where these things pop up. Um, I have my brothers play Fortnite and they were. You know, sending me some videos of them all basically making remixes in Fortnite with like, you know, yeah, Taylor Swift mixed with like Lil Uzi Vert and like the drum parts.

They're all like getting together. I, you know, I don't play the game personally, but they're all getting together, kind of making a little mini beat while they're playing Fortnite. And then that might be just this moment in the game. They're actually competing against each other at that moment. But there's a moment where all that stuff, you know, the game kind of.

Is set aside for a moment and they're just vibing together. Um, and music is a big part of that. So I was really surprised by that. But yeah, really curious to think like, you know, where you think the future of music and gaming is going, just kind of in general.

[00:17:35] Eric: yeah, that's, that's a hell of a question.

Um, I, I have a 9-year-old who plays Fortnite, uh, as well. And, maybe I shouldn't say that publicly 'cause I don't think he's technically old enough, but we let him play. Uh, and not often, you know, we gotta limit that stuff. But I sit there occasionally and I'll watch him and, and he and his friends will be playing a game in which, you know, you're basically killing each other, uh, virtually.

 but then in the middle of it. In an intense like battle, they'll just stop and their avatars that they're playing will look at each other and start dancing. They hit an emote button and, and I'm just like, this is hilarious. And, and it's, but it's real, it's popular music. It's, I'm, I'm sure that that's all licensed and, and, uh, organized, by other folks here in the industry.

But, that I think is only gonna continue. And I think, the ability to interact with music and. Like you said, you know, put, put together your own versions of songs, remix songs. I'm not sure where the gaming component, when that would be. Like you and your friends all challenge each other to remix the same song.

And, and maybe then maybe that's where maybe there's a play for Music League in there. Everybody submits those remixes and they all vote on it. yeah, it's a tough question to answer. I'm, I'm a little, I think Music League is a little different in that. in most digital platforms, gaming platforms, uh, music is in the game.

 for music league, music is the game. And I think so that, you know, I'm, I'm no expert on, on the larger gaming world. Uh, I have an incredible advisory board. There's a couple people on there who literally are experts. but I, I would defer to them to, predict anything that's happening in the future. I couldn't even predict what's happening with my own game.

 so it's, yeah, kinda rolling, rolling with the punches on that.

[00:19:16] Jade: Uh, I love what you said there, and I think that that's an even better question is, is not what's the intersection of music and gaming, but what's the future of gaming where music is the game? That's really cool to me, to me, my mind just goes to like, you know, guitar hero rock band.

That was kind of maybe the first big. Music game where music was the game. And so, yeah, that's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about that more. Thanks for, thanks for dropping that. lastly, I just wanted to ask what advice you would have to, to offer other music tech founders or any founders in general. you know, you've been doing this for, for how many years?

[00:19:52] Eric: three, almost four in, yeah. boy, I don't know. Um,

be decisive, when you, in my case specifically, be decisive in regards to your funding. shore that up and. leave, nothing to chance. if we, with Music League, it's generating enough revenue where I'm tempted to not raise capital. but I'm realizing now that I sh I, I need to, 'cause it's at an inflection point where it could really blow up, uh, with a little bit of, uh, gas to throw on the fire.

 Or fuel for the rocket ship to use one of the cliches startup world always loves to fall on. I wish I'd done it sooner. I wish I'd started sooner, because raising capital is a slog. Um, and it's not getting any easier. so that, I guess that would be my advice is, don't leave any of your funding chance if you don't think you need it.

But you think you might probably be best to go out and get it.

[00:20:47] Jade: Thanks, Eric. really appreciate the time you took to, to talk today and, uh, look forward to maybe catching some shows with you, you know, later in the week.

[00:20:54] Eric: Yeah. Uh, I'll show you my, my list and it's always good to see you too, Jay.

Thank you.

Let us know what you think! Find us on LinkedIn, and Instagram, or connect with podcast host Dmitri Vietze on LinkedIn.

The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Weekly episodes include interviews with music tech movers & shakers, deep dives into seismic shifts, and more.